The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 87, 88 and 103, which I have signed. I add my thanks to the Minister, who has engaged with me on these amendments, among others in the Bill. She has always been courteous and has had good points of view. These amendments were originally drafted by the late noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. To double-shot Lord Etherton’s efforts in this area, I signed them in Committee. The amendments have been taken over and very ably introduced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie. Lord Etherton viewed this selection of amendments as being his effort to try to manage a quasi-judicial process. He was looking at it, of course, with a very practised eye, having been the Master of the Rolls. He was fully knowledgeable on the various large civil penalties that are in the Housing and Planning Act 2016, for which the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government issued a 20-page memorandum to help local authorities through this particular maze of quasi-judicial process. The problem, as Lord Etherton saw it, was that this was not a level playing field for local authorities. The best local authorities would have plenty of highly trained resources to look into a quasi-judicial matter with great fairness, and promptly—promptness being important for both sides of any argument. However, the local authorities whose resources were most stretched or at the bottom end of the quality scale would produce problems. Lord Etherton felt that it was important to set the law in this area so that it would be not for the best or the average local authority but at a reasonably modest rate, so that every local authority could execute, with fairness, whatever quasi-judicial issues they were dealing with. Therefore, with Amendments 87 and 88, he was keen that the standard of proof should move from the balance of probabilities to beyond reasonable doubt. He felt that was more in keeping with how the Housing and Planning Act 2016 had turned out. Moving on to Amendment 103, Lord Etherton noted that there were some large penalties in that Act, the highest penalty being £30,000. The £40,000 penalties we see in this Bill are, I suppose, simply £30,000 grossed up for inflation. He was not worried necessarily about £40,000 as an amount—it was consistent with the £30,000, as he saw it—but he was worried that, under the Housing and Planning Act 2016, the £30,000 penalties were available only where the mental element was intention and not for offences where the mental element was recklessness. Of course, there is a great difficulty in the law for deciding what the difference is between negligence, recklessness and intention. It is very much something on which, in the judicial process, a great deal of training is given to try to allow courts and judges to be utterly consistent up and down the land so that one has clarity for negligence, recklessness and intention. Lord Etherton’s feeling was that recklessness is very difficult. The 20-page memo for the Housing and Planning Act 2016 will be considerably longer if one is going to try to educate local authorities on what “recklessness” truly means. So he was very keen to remove recklessness from Clause 93. I would be very grateful if I could hear where the Minister feels Lord Etherton was wrong in his analysis on that point.