Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)

I completely understand what the noble Baroness is saying. Suppose you cannot find a doctor with that information about you—the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, is not talking about the sorts of cases that many noble Lords were talking about, where, by raising it, you are leading to a situation where somebody might be persuaded when they otherwise would not—the answer would be that you would have to consent to all your records being given to a doctor with whom you could have the conversation. Noble Lords should remember that Clause 5(6) says: “A registered medical practitioner who is unwilling or unable to conduct the preliminary discussion mentioned under subsection (3) is not required to refer the person to another medical practitioner but must ensure that the person is directed to where they can obtain information and have the preliminary discussion”. So you can get assistance from a doctor who is not willing to have the discussion. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that, in order to have the discussion, the doctor has to have all the information I referred to. If no doctor in possession of that is willing then you will have to consent to it being given to somebody else—and a patient can consent to their records being given to another doctor. I turn to the position for those with a disability and, in particular, will deal with the point so powerfully raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton. My Amendment 548A would require that anybody providing a relevant activity under the Bill—new subsection (8) defines “relevant activity” as including “conducting a preliminary discussion”—must not carry out that relevant activity unless the person seeking assistance has an “independent advocate”. The amendment says that “‘qualifying person’ means … a person with a mental disorder (as defined by section 1(2) of the Mental Health Act 1983) … a person who (in the absence of support) would experience substantial difficulty in doing one or more of the following … understanding relevant information … retaining that information … using or weighing that information as part of the process of making relevant decisions, or … communicating their views, wishes or feelings”. Where there is to be a preliminary discussion, the person has to be accompanied by an independent advocate, unless—this is in new subsection (3) to be inserted by the amendment—the person “seeking assistance informs the relevant person that they do not want an independent advocate, or … where the relevant activity is conducting a preliminary discussion, the person seeking assistance informs the relevant person that they are content for the preliminary discussion to be conducted without them having an independent advocate”. What the sponsor of the Bill is aiming at there is as follows. If there is any question about one’s ability to process information—what the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, said about the suggestibility of people with Down syndrome is incredibly resonant—I would envisage the position to be that you have to have an independent advocate but you may not need to have one if it is known to the doctor, or if it becomes apparent, that a family member would be adequate. That would be a reason for not having an independent advocate. But, if there is no family member—for example, if the person suffering from a disability has no parents, siblings or whatever—there has to be an independent advocate. It may be that the area I should focus on in the amendment on independent advocates is this: you can say no to the need for an independent advocate, maybe because you have nobody else, but is that too risky? I need to consider that, given the point on suggestibility raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, and Mr Ross of the Down syndrome advisory policy group, whom I have discussed that with. The points made about people with a learning disability are, I hope, addressed in my amendments on an independent advocate. Ultimately, where there may be no family, the independent advocate has to be the rock-bottom protection. I move on from that to children. I remind noble Lords that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, made clear, Clause 6 says: “No registered medical practitioner or other health professional shall raise the subject of the provision of assistance in accordance with this Act with a person under the age of 18”. It cannot be raised, and I completely stand by that. What happens if it or something like it is raised by a person who is under 18? I found what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, to be resonant and insightful. You have to deal with it in a sensible way. You cannot just say, “I’m afraid I can’t talk about that. That’s the end of it”. You have to treat the person with a degree of maturity. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, supported Amendment 211, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rook, which says: “If a person under the age of 18 raises the subject of the provision of assistance under this Act, the medical practitioner must refuse to discuss the subject and shall inform the person that such assistance is not available to individuals under the age of 18”. I am sure that the medical practitioner should say that it is not available to persons under the age of 18, but I am not sure that it would be wise for the Bill to prescribe that no further discussion is appropriate—particularly for 17 year-olds, who are often quite perceptive. The idea that you cannot have any discussion about this is just not practical or sensible and it would drive people to other sources, which may be more dangerous.