Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)

I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the contents of the regulations before us. I am afraid that I share some of the scepticism of my noble friend Lord Lilley. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for referring to the warm homes scheme. He is aware of my disappointment that the discount is not going to be revisited, and I say that as honorary president of National Energy Action. My understanding is that the heat pumps that are the subject of this measure simply are not as efficient as oil-fired central heating. I say that as where I live in the north of England, it is all oil-fired central heating; we are off grid and we cannot use gas. I walked past a surgery in the north of England that did not have just one heat pump; it had fitted three heat pumps, which probably means that one heat pump was not sufficient to generate the heat required. My understanding—and I would be grateful if the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, could confirm this—is that, without log fires or some other secondary heating, heat pumps heat only to a top temperature of about 16 degrees. If you are retrofitting an existing building, as many of the windows may not be able to accommodate the size of the heat pump or the radiators that connect to it, substantial renovation may be required. Furthermore, I am grateful to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which highlighted that the starting point referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, of around 40,500 installations per year is—in its word, at paragraph 56 of its 10th report—“ambitious”. The department expects the scheme to help ensure the installation of at least 77,000 heat pumps a year in existing homes between 2024-25 and 2028-29. I ask the Minister a simple question: is that feasible and realistic? My noble friend Lord Lilley quoted £2,000 as the cost of an ordinary boiler. I recently got two quotes for a boiler. The boiler itself was not the issue. For the fitting, even that of an oil-fired boiler, you are looking at something in the region of £8,000 to £10,000. I repeat: if you live off-grid in a very rural area, it would be nice to think that heat pumps were an alternative, but, given the state of the current market, I just do not see them as feasible if they heat up to only 16 degrees when, in just the past two weeks, we have regularly had temperatures of freezing or down to minus 10. With those few remarks, I press the Minister to comment on these queries.