Lord Harper (Con)

My Lords, I will make a few points. The first is in response to the perfectly fair point from the noble Lord, Lord Markham, at the beginning about the difference between this debate and the earlier debate we had. I think there is a very clear distinction. The earlier debate was a very wide-ranging one about capacity. Because of that debate, we now have some very specific amendments to look at, which seek to tackle some of the issues that were thrown up in that debate. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, set out why this is important: the practitioners in this area—the professionals of various types who will be involved in implementing this regime if the Bill becomes law—have been saying publicly, as well as to us specifically, that they want clarity about decision-making, so that they are clear about the legal framework that applies to them and the decision-making regime. That is very important. I will not speak to all the amendments in the group; I will focus on a couple of points. We have already talked about the capacity issues around people with deprivation of liberty orders. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, spoke about that debate and the fact that he has—rightly—written to noble Lords setting out his intention to bring forward those amendments on Report. We have not yet seen the detail of those. I have a couple of questions, if he is able to furnish us with that information. I know he said that he was in the process of talking to officials and lawyers about that, but can he give us an indication about whether the protections he is looking at will be something like a yellow flag or a red flag? In other words, would there be a prohibition on someone who has recently been under a deprivation of liberty order so that they would not be able to qualify under the Bill? Also, can he give us confirmation that we would actually have the protections in the Bill, or would they all be left to codes of practice or guidance? Without having done the detailed drafting, if he could give us an indication of his direction of travel, that would be very helpful. A number of noble Lords have pointed out that there is some confusion. I think that both the noble and learned Lord and the Chief Medical Officer have both said on occasion that there is a sliding scale of capacity in the Mental Capacity Act and that there has to be a higher level of decision-making capacity for more important decisions. I think Chris Whitty had to row back from that in a letter that he sent, as my noble friend Lady Berridge said. So can the noble and learned Lord set out his understanding of the position under the MCA for these sorts of decisions? Legal experts have asserted that it is factually incorrect in relation to the Mental Capacity Act. Alex Ruck Keene KC, whom my noble friend Lord Sandhurst mentioned as being part of the CLADD group, has confirmed that, while common law may once have suggested a sliding scale, the MCA itself contains no such requirement. Indeed, that is one of the things that the amendment that they have drafted deals with. Even if there is some case law on some MCA decisions that indicates a sliding scale, there cannot be any case law that is relevant to these decisions, because it has not previously been possible for decisions about assisted suicide to have been lawfully taken. There is no case law that specifically pertains to this gravity of decision. It would be helpful to understand what the noble and learned Lord thinks is the position. I think this is a question that the Minister is capable or answering—or, rather, able to answer—without straying into making a policy decision. Sorry, I changed my word—I was not trying to imply something about her competence at making the thing; it was more about whether she should or should not. What is the Government’s understanding of the MCA, given that the Chief Medical Officer set out one thing in oral evidence and then corrected it? It would be helpful to know what the Government’s definitive view is on this issue of whether there is or is not a sliding scale. That is a factual question that does not go to an opinion about this legislation. It would be helpful for us to know what it is. I have a final question in this area, and then I will make one final point. One of the things that Amendment 115 is also trying to deal with is that under the Mental Capacity Act there is a support principle that effectively becomes a duty to assist. It mandates that: “A person is not to be treated as unable to make a decision unless all practicable steps to help him to do so have been taken without success”. The danger is that the MCA was designed to help people make decisions about things such as finances, care and housing, where support is plainly benevolent. Applying the same duty to a decision to end one’s life is qualitatively different—the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, mentioned the point about how oppressive it can be if you are repeatedly asked whether you want something with this type of decision—and therefore I do not think it is appropriate. I would be interested to know whether the noble and learned Lord accepts that Section 1(3) of the MCA is effectively a statutory duty for doctors to support patients in making this decision, and, if so, whether that balance is accurate. My final point, for a couple of reasons, is on Amendment 119 in the names of my friends, the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Hollins, which deals with the mental capacity assessments for people with learning disabilities. The noble Baronesses and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle on behalf of her colleague, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lincoln, powerfully set out their concerns about whether the MCA properly tests capacity for people with learning disabilities making an irreversible decision of this kind. They set out the concerns very well, so I will not repeat them. I emphasise one danger I can see, which is a point that one or two of them made and that my noble friend Lord Shinkwin made in his earlier contribution, about expectations. We know, sadly, that a number of professionals involved in delivering healthcare have expectations about people with learning disabilities that are not what we would expect. We should all have very high expectations of the quality of life that people with learning disabilities can have. But, just to pick one example, we know how many people with learning disabilities were treated during the Covid pandemic, when many of them were given “do not resuscitate” orders without their consent because medical professionals had taken a view about their quality of life without asking them. I am afraid I am not prepared to just leave it to medical professionals and their professional expertise to properly safeguard those people with learning disabilities. I think we know enough from experience to know that we should properly protect people with learning disabilities, recognising that they often have capacity and are able to make their own decisions, but that they need extra protection to make sure that those decisions are the right ones. If we do not do that, knowing what we know, we will be failing them. Amendment 119 is a very valuable one and commends itself to your Lordships’ House. It would do something that I have said on previous occasions is our job: to look out for those without voices, who are more vulnerable and who need our protection. That is not a duty that we should take lightly; it is one that we all have, and this amendment means we would be fulfilling that duty in a very clear and powerful way.