Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)

My Lords, I do not know where to start. It has been a fantastic debate, and I thank all noble Lords. I thank my noble friend, and I echo the very positive things that have been said about her. I cannot do justice to everything that has been said, but I am grateful for the passion, commitment and knowledge that people have brought to the debate. As I say, I cannot do justice to it all, but the noble Baroness, Lady Teather, who I think of as my noble friend, has done a very good job of summarising some of what has been said, as has my noble friend the Minister. I echo what my noble friend the Minister said about the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey. I appreciate the fact that she has made the time to attend and contribute, although she will not expect me to agree with much of what she said. On the question of what happened during Covid, I take her point. It had something to do with the extra £20 that was paid on universal credit. From the evidence given to the Covid inquiry, I gather that the noble Baroness herself said that she pushed for an increase in universal credit. I welcome that; it was needed. I very much welcome what the noble Baroness said about debt advice services. She spoke about something that I should have mentioned: the importance of advice services more generally. We think of groups such as the Trussell Trust as providing food banks, but a lot of their work is providing advice. I thank the noble Baroness for that contribution. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester was one of many people who emphasised the importance of education from different perspectives—free school meals, teachers, and so forth—as did the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Peterborough, the noble Baronesses, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Teather, and my noble friends Lord Kestenbaum, Lady Paul, Lady Donaghy, Lady Blower, Lord Brooke and Lord John. Education clearly came up in lots of different ways, so its importance was recognised. I very much appreciate the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, bringing her personal experience to bear. We talk about lived experience, but we forget that there may be people on these Benches who have that lived experience and can bring it to our debates, and that is really important. I thank her too for mentioning the Scottish child payment and what is happening in Wales. Sometimes in England, we do not do enough to listen to what is happening in Wales and Scotland and what we can learn from that. A children’s rights perspective is certainly something that we can learn from experience in Wales. My noble friend Lord Babudu mentioned the socioeconomic duty—soon. “Soon” is one of those wonderful government words, is it not? What does it mean? Let us hope it means what we would all like it to mean. It is not long until the Summer Recess, so I hope it means before then. As well as education, a number of noble Lords made important points about health and public health. My noble friends Lady Nargund, Lord Brooke, Lord Sikka and the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, all referred to health in different ways. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, talked about the politics of poverty of aspiration. A lot of people said, “Yes, yes”, but I absolutely take the point. Children have lost aspiration. They have tried. It is not that they start with a lack of aspiration; it is just drummed out of them. They keep facing these hurdles, which they cannot get across because of all the different factors against them. Sometimes there is a danger that we think of aspiration as a kind of individual thing. That is probably my main difference with the noble Baroness, Lady Spielman, because she is coming at it very much from the perspective of individual responsibility, family and so forth, whereas I see poverty as a structural issue: I think it is the structures of society that are contributing to that. So there is a fundamental difference there, but I appreciate her contribution to the debate. I am glad to say that a number of noble Lords supported what I said about the benefit cap. My noble friend said that it has to be reviewed next year. But, really, between this year and next year, families are suffering. I really hope it is not just the kind of review that looks at this and thinks, “Perhaps we should put it up this year”. What I am asking for is a fundamental review of the policy towards the thresholds, rather than simply the annual review. The annual review does not mean you cannot look at it more frequently than every five years. A number of noble Lords made the important point about targets. I am glad that a number brought up families with no recourse to public funds from different perspectives. This group is suffering very real poverty. A number of noble Lords, including my noble friends Lady Donaghy, Lord Hendy and Lord Sikka, brought up the problem of in-work poverty. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Peterborough and others emphasised the importance of the contribution voluntary groups can make. That, importantly, links in with advice services as well. The noble Baroness, Lady Teather, made an important point about listening. People in poverty may be able to help us think about some of the big challenges we face as a society, and that is forgotten. What it comes down to is something a number of noble Lords mentioned: we are talking about political choices, and a moral imperative underlies them. A number of people talked about how we are in the fight of our lives—it is not our lives but the lives of children in poverty. As a number of people have said, we must always remember that they lie behind those statistics. More than one noble Lord made the point that we are talking about the kind of society in which we want to live. I hope that what has been said today, which has been immensely valuable, will be helpful to the child poverty team or unit—whatever it is now called—and to the Government. I quite like this label of being an “encourager”: if the noble Baroness does not mind, I might take that on board and be my noble friend the Minister’s encourager. I am not sure she needs much encouragement, but perhaps she needs support. I hope that what has been said today will give her the support that she and the rest of the Government need. With that, I thank everyone very much for giving up their afternoon and for their immense contribution to the debate.