Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)

My Lords, one has to love the noble Lord. The opposition spokesman starts talking about the potential challenges in this policy, but I remind him that the consultation took place between January and March 2024, when the Government of which he was a supporter was in office. So, by all means, have a little kick-about on this point but, ultimately, the Government are trying to make a provision that makes it easier for consumers, easier for businesses, and does not do what he has alleged that we are trying to do—stop the use of physical means of identity. I was clear in my opening comments about the existing use of physical identification. If someone wants to go out on a Saturday night with their passport in their pocket, they can do so. If it meets the criteria that we have set under the scheme that is already in operation, they can do so. Nobody is going to stop them doing that. We would hope, self-evidently, that people might think that carrying a passport on a Saturday night might not be a good idea, as it could be lost, because it is a physical document that has great value in terms of political capital and in terms of cost of replacement. So a digital scheme could be used. Again, the noble Lord challenges me and says, “Well, isn’t it terrible that the Government have abandoned their digital ID scheme?” The changes operational here are completely separate to the proposals for a national digital ID scheme. Again, I emphasise to the noble Lord that there is no compunction on this. There is an ability to have both, if businesses and consumers wish to do so. That is based on a consultation, I remind the Committee, that was commenced not under this Government but under the previous one. Yes, the Government have changed our view on national digital ID. That is what happens in government occasionally: Governments look at policy, determine them and decide whether to continue or not. The noble Lord will know that the job of Ministers in this House is sometimes to defend government policy as determined by a range of Governments at the time. If Ministers reflect on representations made by, among others, Opposition Members, that is reasonable. I just say to him that there is a way forward and I think it is that which is in this order today. I welcome and thank the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, for her support and acknowledgement of the contribution of the Proof of Age Standards Scheme over a number of years. She raised a number of valid points and I will try to answer them. I absolutely recognise the need for clear guidance available to businesses and consumers to support the use of digital proof of age for the supply and sale of alcohol. Updating the statutory guidance issued under Section 182 of the Licensing Act is an important part of that, as it guides licensing authorities on the discharges of their functions. I can say to the noble Baroness that no immediate change will be made to Section 182 guidance in relation to physical ID and that we will not change anything more before further engagement with PASS. I cannot guarantee that there will not be changes in due course, but it is important that she knows that there will be engagement with PASS. We will certainly examine the points that she has made today and those we discussed outside the Committee yesterday. We have already taken into account and made some changes following suggestions from PASS, and I should be happy for the noble Baroness to write to me, as she suggested, with further suggestions that we will consider in due course. With regard to businesses, I say to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, that businesses will incur costs only if they freely choose to adopt digital proof of age. There is no requirement to do so. Training is important but, again, that is a voluntary measure for businesses to examine in relation to the potential introduction of this legislation. The legislation supports the objectives of strengthening age-verification safeguards and preventing underage alcohol sales. It allows premises secure digital methods to verify age. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Gower, it might be something that people take up, and it might reach 100% within a certain period of time. If it does so, as I have given the Committee the assurance today, it will do so because individuals going out who want to give their proof of age find it a more useful, succinct way of doing so on a digital basis via the verification scheme than carrying a driving licence, birth certificate or passport. I think it is a positive thing. It is reported that 57% of 18 to 25 year-olds have experienced forgetting their ID on a night out. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, will know that people very rarely forget their phones on a night out, and the digital ID that will be there will be available, more secure and, I think, valuable. It will not be mandatory. The Government are taking an enabling approach ensuring that we have an additional option rather than replacing existing forms of proof of age. Ultimately, as the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said, it will be for retailers to maintain their responsibility to ensure that proof of age is present. It is their responsibility to do so, but they remain free to decide which age-verification methods they accept, and consumers remain free to use physical material should they so wish. I will respond to the noble Baroness’s letter in due course. I hope I have helped the noble Lord. I understand that he is opposed to digital ID. That is a legitimate point of view. We know where we are on that. That is not progressing. This is not linked to that. With that assurance, I hope I can—