Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)

I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Foster, and his most interesting speech. This is an excellent debate on crucial issues, and I am so glad that the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, has managed to bring it forward. I also say how glad I am that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Leveson, has joined us. He will add a great deal to this House with his expertise on criminal law. I have been looking at another report: one by the Justice Select Committee of the other place called Ending the Cycle of Reoffending. It sets out, in stark terms, the present state of the prison estate: the lack of adequate education of prisoners or purposeful activity, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Foster; the failure to educate children and young people; the lack of sufficient health and welfare provision, particularly for those with mental health or behavioural problems; gross overcrowding; and, as has been said, prisoners being in cells for most of the 24 hours. There is a disrepair of prisons. Princetown was closed very shortly after the last Government renewed the lease, even though they knew that the prison would have to be closed. There are problems with recruitment and retention of prison officers, and I am not surprised. There is a lack of training of prison officers, not only initially but on promotion. It was suggested in the Justice Committee report that governors needed some training. It points out that there is a lack of involvement by governors and opportunity for them to make decisions on who should be employed in their prison. This background from the Justice Committee is a sad introduction to this much-needed debate. One might ask: who on earth would want to be a prison officer? We have heard not only from me but earlier from other noble Lords what happens to them. The need for rehabilitation of prisoners is obvious, for their sake and the sake of the public. If we just bang people up—mainly men, as we largely do—they are obviously more likely to offend and fill the prisons again. It seems a vicious circle. Many years ago, as a judge, I visited Exeter Prison. I saw an absolutely splendid workshop training prisoners how to make and repair furniture. I went back about three years later and asked about the workshop. It was closed. I asked why. The present officer said that they were so busy taking people to the courts that they did not have time to look after the workshop—oh dear. In the present circumstances, with overcrowded prisons and a lack of resources, it seems difficult to resolve rehabilitation, but the prevention of reoffending and some training of those inside is crucial for the benefit of prisoners and, much more importantly, the public. In the past, there have been some very successful drug and alcohol magistrates’ courts working on addict offenders. Surely, there should also be more residential units for drink and drug offenders under probation orders. If the offender did not finish the course, he would go to prison, but at least some might not reoffend. The female prison population is, as we all know, very much smaller. Many, if not most, women who offend have been victims of abuse. I am not suggesting that no woman should go to prison, but many would be better off out of prison with appropriate probation orders and, of course, support and help to live in the future. The 2007 Corston report gave very good advice on women offenders. I do not know how far her recommendations have been implemented, but she recommended, among other things, that there should be a woman-centred approach in the judicial system, early diversion and efforts to identify and address the root cause of offending. There are excellent initiatives dealing with women, and they should be encouraged and increased. Another problem, of course, is how to deal with prisoners upon release, which has already been referred to. I gather that the early releases are leaving prisoners without the help to prepare for time out of prison. There seems little point in release if there is insufficient help both inside and when they are outside. There are too many offenders who commit offences on release in order to go back to prison—because, where else can they go? Of course, we also have a serious lack of housing. What I do not know is where the overwhelming need to improve the prison estate should start, so I shall listen with great interest to the Minister as to how something, at least, can be done. Both the prisoners and the public require it. The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, raised the issue of the deletion of parental responsibility in a coming Bill. That, as I understand it, would require a judicial decision. I would hope that judges would not remove parental responsibility as a matter of course, but only if the person in prison is unsuited to exercising it. The noble Lord perhaps is worrying too much about that particular proposal.