Andrew George

I congratulate the hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Opher) not only on securing the debate, but on the manner in which he introduced it. I thank him for intervening on the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) to expose the case that he was making. Indeed, the hon. Member for Romford indicated that he was happy to join a party that proposed to abolish the thing that he wants to protect. He wants to depoliticise the thing that he wants to politicise further, and he wishes to maintain continuity of a body by changing it quite radically, according to his proposals. One of the reasons we are here today is that a small number of Lords made a very eloquent and strong case for their own abolition through the manner in which they treated the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill earlier this year. They spent many months filibustering in order to effectively block that Bill, exceeding the powers that the House of Lords should have. I have often raised the question of why we want a second Chamber, and I think that most people, even the hon. Member for Romford, agree that it is there for sober, independent scrutiny of the legislation that we send down to the Lords. Their role is to encourage us to take a less tribal view on the legislation that we seek to take forward, and to provide expert scrutiny that is helpful for the processes we are engaged in. However, as the hon. Member for Bolton West (Phil Brickell) put so articulately, the system of patronage is both corrupting and extremely corruptible. Clearly, that needs to be swept away in any reforms to the House of Lords, but the question is: what do we put in its place? I entirely understand the emotional response, which is to say that we should have an elected Chamber, but I want to challenge that idea. I have often said that we want to retain the best of the House of Lords Appointments Commission because it provides at least a template of a helpful function, particularly if we can attract the kind of people that the hon. Member for Romford described, so that a sliver—a proportion, a minority—of Members are selected according to the qualities that they can bring to the place. The rest of it should be on a jury service basis—or in other words, a citizens assembly. That has been proposed by a large number of people and organisations over time. Of course, I can entirely understand the laudable and emotional response that one elects the Chamber, but there is a risk, which the hon. Member for Romford mentioned, that it becomes either a lapdog or a logjam to this Chamber. In those circumstances—we saw it with the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill—the Lords would argue that they have the democratic legitimacy to challenge the decisions of the primary Chamber. We do not, for example, say that because board members for the Environment Agency, Natural England, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Climate Change Committee or the Low Pay Commission have power and political influence over the decisions that are taken in our country, they should be elected. On that basis, I am sorry to say that the arguments for an elected Chamber evaporate away. We need to find other ways of ensuring that we have the genuine and sober second-thought and independent scrutiny that this Chamber needs and deserves. Otherwise, quite frankly, it would be better to turn the place into a museum.