Lord Kamall (Con)

My Lords, this has been another rather long but interesting debate. It is important that noble Lords who wanted to speak had their voices heard. It touches on something we touched on very early. Noble Lords will remember when we debated another version of motivation and talked about coercion. A number of noble Lords put forward amendments to talk about encouragement. In that debate, we saw how difficult it was to distinguish between encouragement and coercion, to say whether encouragement is a form of coercion, and to legally define something such as encouragement. Now we have the very same issue with motivation. In some ways, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, said, motivation is the internal version: it is self-encouragement or self-coercion, not wanting to feel a burden. We have debated what it means to feel like a burden. It is important that we understand the motivation. As the noble Baroness said, professionally, doctors need to do that to understand what help or assistance that patient could be given. It could be, if this Bill passes, that they are allowed or helped to progress to assisted dying, but it could be that they are offered something else that they feel very comfortable with that gives them a bit longer to live and to have that quality time that the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, talked about having with her family. When I was a Health Minister, one of the things that I learned about palliative care from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, when I first spoke to her was that people who live longer, even though they may have wanted their life to end “now”, appreciated that extra time with their family, once they entered palliative care, to close those unclosed things, to make up with friends and family they may have fallen out with, and to bring closure to their life before they went. It is important that we recognise that. I do not want to go back into the whole debate about palliative care, but it is important that it is seen as an option to give that closure to people, even if they do not want it and they decide, “I’ve made my mind up”. That is probably a more informed choice. We need to be very careful about trying to define exactly what the one word that sums up the debate is. If it is about choice and only choice, pretty soon after the Bill reaches the statute book, people will say, “I only have 12 months to live. Why can’t I have the same choice as people who have six months?” Surely it is about not just choice or suffering but a combination of factors. That makes it incredibly difficult for the lawyers, but also for the medical people, to determine. We need to unpick some of that. Noble Lords who have spoken on this group have picked up a number of issues: people feeling like a burden, mental health disorders, disabilities, and remembering that not all disabilities are visible. On that point, I welcome back the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell of Surbiton—I should know her title because she lives down the road from me; next time she sees me on the high street, she will probably prod me on that. There are also financial considerations, self-motivation and avoiding physical pain. The Bill does not require a specific motive as part of the eligibility criteria. Obviously, the whole Bill is about eligibility—the first few words are about who is eligible to seek assisted death services or terminally ill adult services—but it would be helpful if the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, could expand on the thought process behind his very tight definition of “eligibility”. I must say to noble Lords who have teased the noble and learned Lord a little bit about things that he may have said in the past that we are all entitled to change our mind when we learn new facts or hear a different view. I do not see it as a weakness in an argument if someone changes their mind when they have heard new facts. I find myself defending the noble and learned Lord, but I do not think we should be too harsh. I should remind people that I am personally very torn on this Bill, and I have not made up my mind. I am waiting to see the outcome of this debate before I make up my own mind about how I vote on this. We also heard about dignity. I teach at a Catholic university, and dignity is a very important concept in Catholic social teaching. But what is dignity? It can be subjective. One person could be told that they have to wear incontinence pads for the rest of their life, and someone else could be told, “I’m sorry, you can’t walk for the rest of your life”, but other people have quite a full life even if they face those challenges or find themselves disabled. It is really difficult to define dignity; in many ways, it is subjective. I have read many of the papal encyclicals about all this. By the way, I am a Muslim teaching at a Catholic University; in many ways I am the diversity, if you like. It is important that we consider what we really mean by dignity. We all think we know what it means, but we all have a different perspective on what it is. A point that has come up many times in the debate is that we hear the words “pain” and “suffering”, but they are not in the Bill. We have to ask the noble and learned Lord, the sponsor of the Bill, about the thought process behind why he decided not to put “pain” and “suffering” in the Bill so that we can all understand, given that many noble Lords have asked that question about pain and suffering, why they are not explicitly there. I ask the Minister this very carefully. A number of times during Committee, we have put questions to the Government but they have constrained themselves as to what they answer. It is important that the Government tell us what the implications would be if the Bill were to pass into law and what that would mean for resources in the department and for decisions that the Department of Health may have to make, as well as what it might mean for other departments of government. That is important. We cannot just say, “I’m going to confine myself to these few clauses”, because this will have implications. Some will say that it may have implications for wider society—a society that allows people to take their lives earlier or encourages death. It changes the sort of society we live in. Many people will welcome that and will say it is a society of choice, while others will say, “No, we don’t want to live in that sort of society”. We have to remember the implications of this Bill. I ask the Minister to set out the Government’s considered view. I know that the Minister will say that some of these amendments as drafted are not legally sound—we understand all that—but these are probing amendments. This is a Committee stage and the amendments are not meant to be completely technically sound. We need to know, if they were to pass and were to be tidied up by the government lawyers or the officials, what that would mean for the workability of the wider health and care system and not just in respect of these issues that we are debating or the individual clauses in the Bill. We need to have a clear view of how this will change things and of the challenges that any Government will face when a new Bill comes in. That would be helpful. I will stop there. I have asked a few questions to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, about the motivations for some of the decisions that he made in drafting the Bill, but also to the Minister speaking on behalf of the Government to answer the very real implications for resources, et cetera, not only in the Department of Health and Social Care but more widely across government.