Baroness Sherlock (Lab)

My Lords, I am going to read Hansard, because I very much hope that the noble Lord has not just accused the OBR of having skin in the game. If it was not the OBR, perhaps he would like to write to tell me whom he was accusing of having skin in the game, because I do not recognise the point that he just made. The point on the whole of government accounts was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. The whole of government accounts present the liability in accordance with the international financial reporting standards. There are no plans to change that approach and I do not think that there should be. However, I recognise that members of the PAC asked whether the liability could be presented on a more permanent basis to show how it would change in the absence of changes to the discount rate, to make it easier for people to understand it. As I said in Committee, the Treasury is exploring options to present pension liabilities on a constant basis. To be clear, that presentation would be supplementary and would not affect the underlying pension liability calculations in any way, or how they are presented in the financial statements, but the Treasury is looking at whether they can be presented in a supplementary way to aid understanding. Given that the reforms have already been implemented and all the relevant information is already available, a government-commissioned review would largely replicate and collate existing material. On unfunded schemes, it is true that the schemes referenced are unfunded, but unfunded does not equal unaffordable or unsustainable. I set out that costs are projected to fall as a share of GDP. It is also a long-standing government policy not to hold assets against liabilities that sit fully under the control of the Exchequer, as I explained on an earlier group. Moving from unfunded to funded provision on a like-for-like basis would simply require additional borrowing to build up assets and would not improve the overall fiscal position. However, if the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, wants to recommend cutting the value of public sector pensions, that is a different matter. It is not what we are discussing here today but it could be discussed within the House. Factors such as longevity were mentioned, which can affect costs over time. Again, the current framework is designed to capture and manage that. Changes in assumptions are reflected through scheme valuations, which affect employer contribution rates—the point flagged up by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger. The cost control mechanism then operates to require adjustments to member benefits if costs move outside the agreed corridor. Therefore, the Government do not accept the amendment. Had the previous Government felt it to be important, having reviewed and reformed the system, they had 14 years to make a decision. They left government less than two years ago and suddenly this must be done on our watch. We do not think that is the appropriate way forward. Amendment 164 was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. He recognises that we had an exchange in Committee but, since others have raised it, I say simply that these rules were a feature of legacy public service pension schemes, as he knows. Those legacy schemes are now closed. Members are accruing benefits in reformed schemes that do not contain these provisions. The Government do not believe it appropriate to improve retrospectively the terms of previously accrued public service pensions, consistent with the approach taken when the reforms were introduced by the coalition Government. In response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, I think the Civil Service position is similar to that of the police. With the NHS, forfeiture applies to those who left the service before April 2008. If I am wrong I will write to her, but I believe that is the position and I hope that clears that up. Amendment 158, tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, seeks to introduce a statutory requirement for the Secretary of State to conduct a review on retirement incomes. I understand the intention behind this amendment but, as I explained in Committee, the Bill contains a range of reforms which will be implemented in phases over the next decade. A review in the next five years will not have allowed many of the reforms any time to take effect. Changes to retirement outcomes can take a long time to have effect as people build savings and then retire, so this is not appropriate. An updated version of the impact assessment was published when the Bill entered this House. It detailed our monitoring and evaluation plans. The monitoring has already started. Research is under way with employers. The DWP, the Treasury and the regulators are scoping out further data and research plans, developing key metrics across the core aims of the Bill and committing to regularly monitoring and publishing, as well as conducting new research to fill evidence gaps. Furthermore, the measures contained in the Bill will help to build greater and more consistent data, particularly through the value-for-money framework, helping to create a strong evidence base to monitor and analyse trends. Where we consider it is appropriate to keep measures under review, we have included a review clause, such as the new clause “Review of any exercise of powers under Section 28C” in Clause 40(13). That is proportionate and tailored to the specific interventions, and it is the appropriate way forward. As set out in my letter to noble Lords on 4 March, the Pensions Commission has been tasked with making recommendations about pensions adequacy and support for those approaching retirement. It will publish an interim report this spring, setting out the evidence base and a strategic direction for its work, with final recommendations early next year. A separate statutory review would create confusion and overlap, and would not be helpful. Amendment 159, tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, seeks another review, this time on the barriers to UK investment. I recognise that the noble Viscount wants assurance that the Government are taking a holistic approach to increasing UK pensions investment. I will not relitigate all the things that he brought up, some of which are relevant to this Bill and some to other Bills. The Government have already completed a detailed review of pension investment. The pensions investment review—the clue is in the name—consulted widely and considered a range of investment barriers. It reported last year, which led directly to many of the measures in the Bill. The review considered not only the questions of scale and asset allocation but the regulatory environment, fee structures and wider factors that affect how pension schemes invest. It was a serious and comprehensive piece of work. The Bill already requires the Government, if they decide to use the reserve power, to consult and publish a report. That would be the time to consider the investment landscape. Amendment 170A from the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, seeks a review of how members’ views are considered in the effective governance of pension schemes. Pensions are a significant part of workers’ pay and their security in retirement, so it is important that the voice of the member is heard and considered in the governance of pension schemes. That is one of the reasons why we have focused so much on the role of trustees and on their duty to act in the best interests of members. Well-performing pension schemes already take account of members’ views through their governance and engagement processes. This includes member-nominated trustees, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Davies, regular surveys and consultations, and feedback gathered through helplines, portals and member meetings. That helps trustees by ensuring that decision-making is better informed, more aligned with member needs and more credible. Occupational pension schemes with 100 or more members are required by regulations to publish a statement of investment principles and an annual implementation statement setting out their investment policies and stewardship approach, including voting and engagement. The regulations also require trustees to disclose the extent to which non-financial matters—such as members’ ethical or personal preferences—are taken into account in investment decisions. These disclosure tools are important for members’ views because they enhance transparency, strengthen accountability and give a structured way for trustees to explain how member-driven considerations have been reflected in their policies. Guidance from the DWP helps trustees articulate better how such views have been considered when they choose to do so. Well-run pension schemes recognise that members have different investment needs and respond to them. Although trustees consider member views, as they must, they ultimately balance them against their fiduciary duty to act in the interests of beneficiaries. The Government recently concluded a consultation on trusteeship and governance in trust-based schemes. That consultation emphasised the importance of ensuring that members’ voices are better represented in decision-making and sought feedback on how we can ensure that the voices of members are heard in the market. A lot of reviews have been called for here. I hope that I have explained why the Government are doing a great deal in all these spaces already. I welcome the debate but ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.