Lord Beamish (Lab)

I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions. We have had an informed debate. The important thing about this scandal that I have recognised over the years is that you have to keep bringing it to the surface so that people do not forget the gravity of what we face. I will pick up one point that the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, made about the judiciary. In reply, the Minister talked about solicitors, but the noble Lord—and I agree with him—was talking about the judiciary as an institution. When the last Government overturned the convictions, there was a huge hue and cry from the judicial establishment, saying how terrible it was that this was taking place. I suggest that people read some of the transcripts of the court cases and look at the role of judges. The one that sticks in my mind is the Capture case of June Tooby. Her protestations that Capture was the problem were completely ignored and thrown out by the judge, who was not prepared even to hear the consideration. Although cases are being taken against solicitors, the judiciary needs to look at its role in this. There is no way this could have happened if a few inquiring minds had asked questions. I ask the justice department to look at that. On the role of auditors, that is unfinished business. I am sorry, but I do not accept that it is good enough for the Government just to say that it is down to the regulators to look at that. Over the years, sub-postmasters kept asking what had happened to their money. The accountants did not know where the money was in the system, even though it was signed off—and no doubt Ernst & Young and others were paid millions of pounds for their advice. I understand the position of the Government and others in wanting to wait for Sir Wyn Williams’s report to be published, but I think that is being used as an excuse. Most of the information is out there now, and certainly in Fujitsu’s case it is—it has admitted to its role in this. I welcome the Minister’s support for my suggestion that Fujitsu should support and pay an interim payment. I just hope that, when Minister Thomas meets Fujitsu, he makes that point strongly. I also urge that, when the Secretary of State visits Japan next month, he raises that directly with the main board in Tokyo. At the end of the day, the contribution that got to the heart of it was that of the noble Lord, Lord Polak—it was a human story. We all have those, and if you have met any of the victims, you can replicate those human stories. At the end of the day, this is about individuals who were hard-working, solid citizens. They were pillars of their local communities and were absolutely devastated and ruined by these acts against them. In closing, all I would say is that compensation and changing the systems are important, but we should all remember that, at the end of the day, when the state gets things wrong, it is the individual citizens—people such as Rita, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Polak, who has gone through hell for the last few decades—we should think about.