Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)

My Lords, as a former member of another place who represented 2,900 square miles of Wales, I have the feeling that we are getting into a horrible conceptual muddle in this debate. I feel the phrase “horses and carts” applies to several sentences around what is being debated here. I was one of the advocates of devolution when I was a Welsh Member of the other place and supported it very strongly when it came about, and I absolutely recognise the points that have been made so ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. However, after hearing earlier parts of this debate, what I am hearing is that actually the money side of this is not the horse; it is part of the cart. We have heard Ministers, including my noble kinswoman by the way, repeatedly saying in response to amendments in this debate that this House and this Parliament decide whether we pass this Bill. If the Bill is passed, the Government will have to provide the resources to enable it to work. I apprehend that, if this Bill is passed, if it is given enough time to reach the end of its parliamentary stages, which I think it should be allowed—though I do not support the Bill in principle, by the way—then the money would have to come from somewhere and the adjustment would be made to enable Wales to provide the services required.