Contribution
My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendment 218A. Before I do so, on Amendment 212, the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, made a valiant attempt to square the circle of opposing some forms of mandation while supporting others, but it did not quite get me over the line. So I do not support that amendment.
However, I am interested in my noble friend’s Amendment 218E on the TNFD. We have spoken many times in the House about nature and climate being two sides of the same coin, and we now have a framework that enables organisations to understand nature risk properly. It therefore seems logical that it is integrated into our thinking on pensions.
Although I acknowledge my noble friend’s concerns, the reason why I support Amendment 218A is that, at its heart, its point is to clarify that pension schemes trustees can take systemic-level risks into account when carrying out their fiduciary duty. We could have debates on other aspects, such as taking members’ views into account, but the amendment is attractive because it still has fiduciary duty at its heart rather than seeking to overrule it. That is a beneficial approach because it does not put those of us in Committee, or the Government, in the position of taking those views and making those decisions for people—that remains with the trustees, which is, I think, appropriate.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, eloquently made most of the points to be made in relation to Amendment 218A. The Government agree that we need to clarify that fiduciary duty can include a consideration of systemic risk; that point was accepted by the Pensions Minister in December. So the question then becomes: what form should this improved guidance take? Should it be legislative or statutory? I think that it should be legislative because so much of the understanding of fiduciary duty relies on the interpretation of case law. Therefore, we need a clearer legal underpinning of our understanding of this duty for it to be robust and for trustees to use it, which is the barrier that we are already trying to solve.
I would like to understand from the Minister why the Government have a preference for statutory guidance over legislative change. In the past, the Government have pointed to the importance of flexibility and consultation—those are allowed for through this amendment, but it would have the added benefits of proper parliamentary scrutiny and consultation with outside bodies.
I also want to ask the Minister about the scope of the Government’s proposed approach; this was touched on by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. Why is it limited to occupational trust-based schemes, if that is the case? We have about half of pension assets in local government pension schemes and personal pensions, so why would this not extend to those?
Finally, I wish to press the Minister on timing. We have heard about transition plans in this debate. Work on those has been under way for a long time, and we have heard about the extended timeline, which may extend even further—one never knows. We have heard about the TNFD and the time it takes to get momentum behind this. We have heard about the fact that we were debating these issues three years ago in the then Financial Services and Markets Bill. We had one of our round tables before the election was called and I think that the Government have had further round tables to try to corral their efforts to address this issue.
However, the point remains: there needs to be a legislative basis for this statutory guidance. That is my understanding. We now have a pensions Bill. Let us hope that we do not have another one. We hear the phrase, “We will bring forward proposals when parliamentary time allows”—well, this is that parliamentary time. I am sure that the Government have lots of other things they want to do with future Bills in future Sessions of Parliament. May I encourage the Minister to seize this time? If she does not agree with Amendment 218A, at least on the statutory guidance, bring forward the legislative basis so that the Government can get on with the thing they say they want to do.