The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)

My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. This group of amendments deals with the details of the forthcoming retail licensing scheme. Let me say in opening, in response to all of these amendments, that our intention in this regard is very much what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, just spoke about: to support legitimate businesses that stick to the rules while deterring and being able to deal with rogue retailers. We want the scheme to minimise the burden on retailers and local authorities as far as is possible—again, a point that was rightly made by a number of noble Lords. Let me first turn to Amendment 30, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. I hope I can reassure her that the Government are carefully considering the design and implementation of the licensing scheme. In respect of her opening comments, we look forward to continuing to work with the Association of Convenience Stores and other important and relevant groups. Considering the design and implementation of the scheme will include the interaction with alcohol licensing. I can tell the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that we are working closely with the Department for Business and Trade as well as the Home Office. However, as she recognised, ultimately, our objectives and motivations are different; they may be complementary, but they are different. For example, on alcohol licensing, the focus is on supporting resilience and growth of on-trade venues that provide safe and regulated spaces for people to socialise. With tobacco and vape licensing, as I said, it is about ensuring that we support those who abide by the rules and act as a deterrent to those who do not. Of course, we have a public health objective. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, asked about pressures on enforcement, which is a very reasonable question. Local authorities will be able to use the licensing fee they collect from retailers to cover the cost of running and enforcing the licensing scheme. That will assist local authorities and will ensure that the scheme is implemented and sustainable. I believe the noble Baroness also asked if there would be enough time for training and development. Again, that will be part of our discussions that will follow from the call for evidence and the consultation after that, which I will come to very soon. I want to pick up the point the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, made about looking to other nations. We are aware of several international examples where this has been very successful, including some cities in the United States, Finland, Hungary, France, Italy, Spain and Australia. We have much to call on and will absolutely be considering what works best in the development of our own scheme. Noble Lords will recall from earlier discussions that we have recently launched a call for evidence, which closes on 3 December. That is on a whole range of issues, including questions about the process for granting licences and implementation more generally. That will inform a subsequent consultation on the detail of the scheme. The points being raised today are all important and they will be considered through both those actions. I turn now to Amendments 35 and 42, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. Amendment 35 seeks to prevent the Secretary of State requiring licensing authorities to consider the location and/or density of tobacco and vape retailers when they make decisions on the granting of licences. The call for evidence asks for feedback on how licensing authorities should make decisions and whether and how much factors such as the ones the noble Lord rightly raised, location and density, should have a role. However—I am sure many noble Lords would agree with this—there are certain places where it would obviously be inappropriate for a tobacco or vape shop to be located. For example, I have not heard a call for vape shops to open next door to children’s nurseries, so there are some obvious points. As our aim is to stop children and young people smoking and vaping, it is absolutely right that we consider factors that might have a role, such as the location and density of retailers. I am very much looking forward to the feedback on this through our call for evidence. Amendment 42 would require the Government to consider the benefits of combining tobacco and alcohol licensing into a joint scheme. I certainly understand the noble Lord’s very good intention to learn from existing licensing schemes and to avoid unnecessary burdens on retailers—something I have already associated myself with. We recognise that alcohol licensing is established and familiar to a lot of businesses, and that we can learn from alcohol licensing when designing the new scheme. That is why the call for evidence includes detailed questions on the design, and why we have to consult. It is the right thing to do, but it will also meet the intentions of the amendments before us. This process will allow us to consider where we can make use of existing systems and practices, as noble Lords have called on us to do. We share the view that the minimisation of additional costs and burdens, as far as possible, is the right thing to do, while ensuring that the new licensing scheme achieves our aims on tobacco and vapes. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, when he said that the current lack of a licensing system for tobacco is a major gap in enforcement. Therefore, I am glad that the introduction of this new retail licensing scheme is strongly supported by retailers and the public alike. I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords and that they will not press their amendments.