Lord Johnson of Lainston (Con)

I am never quite sure whether I should declare an interest in this debate as someone who has smoked the occasional cigar, but on this set of amendments I declare an interest in that I have teenage children. I see their actions, which chime very much with what the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, has just discussed. We are in danger of creating a two-tier system—we do this across the board, and I am afraid we in this House are guilty of it—whereby we have excess intense regulation, which affects law-abiding citizens and consumers, and we focus on that, feeling that we have done our job and can sit back and relax, having stopped smoking, drinking or whatever it may be. But the reality is that we simply end up creating a second and entirely unregulated market. I saw the same documentaries that my noble friend saw and was surprised, but not by the clandestine nature of organisations and illegal groups of pirates supplying illegal cigarettes and vape products under the counter or under the table in a pub—these were shops that were well advertised. In fact, I was quite impressed with some of the branding. Some of them were chains; they have become multinational corporations with headquarters, running an effective illegal system that pays no taxes. Clearly, as these documentaries showed, they had other issues, such as money laundering and very bad employment systems. In conversations with the Minister, I have been encouraged by the realisation of this two-tier issue. It is not simply in the physical sense; it is also online. The teenagers I speak to say they have never actually bought a legal packet of cigarettes. It would not occur to them: at £20 a packet, they would be better off taking up cigars. Instead, they buy everything online, where there are no age checks. They can usually get hold of somebody else’s credit card, and it is delivered to the house. I find it very alarming that we will spend our time in these debates, and the Government will spend a huge amount of effort on a so-called ban of smoking and nicotine products, while at the same time allowing an illegal market to flourish. From conversations with the Minister, which I found extremely helpful, I am aware that online sales are hard to regulate because of how enforcement happens at the local level: there is no one authority, although specific authorities will take leads in certain areas. There does not seem to be enough money or focus on this important issue. I am saying this because I care about the retailer and about the end ambition, in some measure, of this overall government initiative. It would be extraordinary if we focused all our efforts on a great sledgehammer to crush legal, law-abiding and decent retailers who are trying to do their job, and law-abiding consumers, without realising that we are creating another monster that needs to be tamed.