Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)

I spend most of my time in these debates about tax relief on pensions defending the existing system, because the people I tend to mix with regard that tax relief as grossly unfair. It obviously gives far more to the higher paid than the lower paid, and that is why there is widespread discussion of having flat-rate tax relief on pensions. If we were starting from scratch, I think we could do that, but we are not. We have to start from where we are. Where we are is in having extremely high levels of, effectively, government subsidy for people to save for retirement, but that begs the question: what is the right level of tax relief for pensions? Does it just happen to be that we have alighted at the correct level, or is that an issue we are not allowed to discuss? Putting words into the mouth of the noble Lord, Lord Fuller, he seems to be adopting the argument: “The more the merrier—let’s increase it by even more”. No, there is a genuine question here. What is the right level of tax relief to encourage people to save for their retirements? It is a reasonably practical debate and, on this side, we have come to the conclusion, possibly as an interim measure, that it should be a bit lower than it is currently. That certainly does not justify the doom and gloom about this particular change—I have made my point several times. I am no longer a small business person, but for 30 years I was and I employed people who had multiple jobs. It is not a new issue. There is nothing new about the idea of employers having to cope with the complications of the national insurance system for people who have multiple jobs, particularly where, even with two jobs, their total income is more than the £12,500 that it is at present. It is not a new issue that employers are going to have to deal with. In principle, there is an additional complication; they have to sort out where the £2,000 limit applies. However, it is reasonable to expect employers to undertake those tasks. To be honest, I do not think that an ice-cream salesman is really a genuine example, but I may be wrong.