Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)

These two amendments are grouped together. There are clear common themes between them, the most obvious one being dissatisfied scheme members: dissatisfied pensioners concerned that they have ended up worse off than they might reasonably have expected. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for his excellent description of both problems, and in broad terms I support the spirit behind these amendments. Of course, both of them call for a review, but in truth we do not really need a review; we know that wrong was done here and we are really asking for the Government to accept some responsibility for providing an element of redress. Amendment 216 is actually about a thing called integration in pension schemes. This was a technique used widely in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, where the occupational pension had a target taking account of the state pension, integrating the state pension into the benefit model. Where the retirement age of the scheme was, for example, 60—we had schemes with a retirement age of 60 in those days—it was integrated by paying more money between 60 and 65. We are talking about a man here. That was when the state pension would come into payment. At that point, the scheme pension would be reduced to allow for the fact that they are now getting this pension from the state. That is an issue of scheme design, and my view is that the rules of the scheme should be set through collective bargaining. The problem is that that sort of arrangement is much more obvious to someone like me with a lot of experience. I sometimes would claim that my superpower is understanding scheme rules. It is absolutely clear to me, but I can well understand that an ordinary member of the scheme would not immediately have that understanding. Of course, it is quite possible that they see their pension being cut when they get to state pension age. In some schemes, it is actually cut before they get to state pension age now, because the rules still refer to a reduction at 65 and the state pension is not payable until 66, so there are big problems. Of course, it is possible to look at it the other way around: the member is actually getting a bigger pension after state pension age, and that is to their advantage. This goes to the central point, which is a lack of understanding among scheme members. Were they misled into giving more credit to the scheme? Clearly, for the particular campaigning groups we have heard from—under Amendment 216, there are a number of different groups—their case rests on the argument that the way the rules worked was not adequately explained to them, and they need compensation for how they were misled.