Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)

We have here the interaction of a number of different pieces of legislation. Of course, we are all looking forward to the Second Reading of the Pension Schemes Bill next week. We have before us the Occupational Pension Schemes (Collective Money Purchase Schemes) (Extension to Unconnected Multiple Employer Schemes and Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2025. We also have the 2022 regulations that first set out the regulatory requirements for CDC schemes. In parallel, we have the Occupational Pension Schemes (Collective Money Purchase Schemes) Regulations. As the Minister and the Front Bench well know, that sets out another of the Government’s initiatives: to provide CDC schemes that can offer retirement pensions, rather than people having to buy annuities. All these different pieces of legislation interact in ways, I think it is fair to say, that are sometimes difficult to grasp. What worries me about these regulations is that it is a bit like when you have extensive building work in your house, and the architect asks you where you want the light switches. Of course, you do not know where you want the light switches until you have lived in that house for two or three years, but you have to decide in advance. This is my concern about these regulations: we do not know how these schemes will work in practice. We are all agreed that they are a good thing, we want to see them supported and developed and we have to start somewhere, but certain aspects of what is before us today cause me some concern—or, to tone it down, some level of interest. First, is it clear that the provisions in the Pension Schemes Bill dealing with value for money, guided retirement and particularly scale will apply to these schemes? They are closer to these schemes than they are to defined benefit. It is quite clear in the legislation that the scale requirement applies to DC arrangements. To what extent will the scale requirement directly, or indirectly through the supervision requirements, end up requiring schemes of a particular scale? My fear is that, if there is a scale requirement, it will just be another barrier to establishing these schemes that, in practice, we all want. An associated point that has been raised is that we are now effectively getting separate CDC regimes. The existing one with the Post Office scheme is the only live example, and that is very scheme specific. We do not know how far the legislation can cover other sorts of single-employer CDC schemes. Then we have the multi-employer scheme regime and the retirement pension CDC regime. Are these regimes completely separate? To what extent is there going to be scope to make transfers from one regime to another? Are these regimes overlapping or are they distinct? One problem is always raised. I am a strong supporter of CDC arrangements. It should be the future of private sector pension provision and we want to encourage it as much as possible, but there are problems with the way it works in practice. Ultimately, however deep it is hidden down in the workings and however many formulae you adopt to ensure fair treatment, there is always the risk of some form of cross-subsidy between members. There will be winners and losers. With multiple employer CDCs, there is also the possibility of cross-subsidy between employers. It is inherent in the approach, in my view. I know supporters of CDC argue that it is not the case, but I think you should always be concerned about the fear of that. We do not know, because so many of the supervisory powers are given to the regulator, the detail of how they are going to be applied. Will it be made clear that this will not be an impediment to developing these sorts of arrangements? The important point is communication. We need to be clear in the regulations about the need for full and adequate communication so that potential members are fully aware of the nature of the arrangement they are entering. My final concern is that we are heading towards a retailisation of this sort of provision. It will become a retail product, and that is not how I and many other people envisaged CDC operating. It should be a collective endeavour. I must admit that I have an instinctive reaction against the use of the word “proprietor” for the sponsor of these arrangements. I would prefer the word “sponsor”, because “proprietor” implies that it is not a collective arrangement but a commercial one. Clearly, it will cost money to set up these arrangements and, to a certain extent, the complexity introduced by these regulations means that even more money will be required to do so. But my fear is that we will ultimately end up with underregulated insurance companies, rather than the collective and co-operative arrangement that I think is the true way forward for CDC arrangements. My fears are that it is all too complicated. We need to be clear about the overlap between these different areas of legislation and the different types of CDC arrangement. A system in which people have the right to transfer their money out of a scheme at the same time as the Government are encouraging schemes to invest in non-market based investments, means that there is a contradiction, which could be the Achilles heel of this type of arrangement. I am taking this opportunity to express my concerns and raise them formally with the Minister. The specific questions are about multiple CDC arrangements, information communication requirements and an approach which enables people to understand what they are getting here—it is better than pure DC. My final complaint is that the regulations persist with the business of calling these schemes “collective money purchase”. I have made the point before in these discussions that they are not collective money purchases. They are called money purchase schemes because you purchase an annuity, and these schemes are being set up specifically with the introduction of retirement-only CDCs so that you do not have to buy an annuity. I am really sorry that the department has persisted in using the term “money purchase” in these regulations when they are clearly not money purchase arrangements.