Heritage Public Houses Bill
Friday, 16 October 2026
Contributions
Proceedings resumed .
Dame Meg HillierLabour (Co-op)
I was talking about Hackney Church Brew Co., and many of the other independent breweries underneath the arches.
Adam JogeeLabour
I am conscious that I have spoken a lot, but before my hon. Friend was interrupted by the statement she said that she would like to arrange for Members of the House to visit one of her breweries. My hon. Friend the Member for Kensington and Bayswater (Joe Powell) has said that he will happily get the first round, so may I encourage my hon. Friend to get arranging sooner rather than later?
Everybody is always welcome to Hackney South and Shoreditch—it is the centre of the universe, although others may disagree with me. It is only half an hour by bike or public transport from this place, so I highly recommend it—a good night out will be had by all! The new breweries and pubs are bucking the trend in hospitality, and the archway areas are becoming hubs for other businesses. High streets can be challenging, but in Hackney our high streets still do reasonably well, partly because although Hackney is often described as being very hip, cool and expensive—and that is true—it is still achingly poor. One in two children live in poverty, although thanks to the Government’s changes on child poverty hopefully that will reduce, and nearly 60% of people live in social housing, many in overcrowded conditions. The arches are part of what might be called “new Hackney”, but they build on the old traditions. Saint Monday is an innovative brewery that combines brewing with heavy metal, so any heavy metal fans here can get a bit of real ale and heavy metal in the same place. Great Beyond taproom and brewery, another archway-based business, was set up by Ollie, Nick and John, three beer-loving friends. They do some amazing work and people can buy great Shoreditch and Hackney-made beer there. I forget which bar serves which beer—perhaps we need to do a crawl of all the ones named after Hoxton and Shoreditch? That alone would keep us busy. The Howling Hops brewery brews on site as well, and I really like the 40ft Brewery in Dalston, which I go to every now and again. The name 40ft refers to that fact that it is based in two 20-foot shipping containers, so not arches this time. That would not reach the heritage standards set out by the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, but there is interesting new heritage coming through in our breweries. Many breweries offer tours, including Signature Brew and Five Points, so if people are thinking about gifts as we approach the festive season, I highly recommend a visit to Hackney and a tour of one of the breweries. This shows the modern culture that is coming through. Some of the breweries are in heritage buildings, and the arches have their own heritage, but the challenge would be whether they qualify under the provisions set out in the hon. Gentleman’s Bill. I want to talk a little about assets of community value. When I read the Bill for the first time, I was trying to find what was specifically different about the provisions relating to assets of community value. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire outlined some of that in his speech, so I am now a little wiser to his thinking. Assets of community value were introduced in the Localism Act 2011. It provides communities with a route to nominate and retain any building or land, such as heritage pubs, that they feel “furthers the social wellbeing or social interests of the local community”. Local authorities are responsible for ensuring that those schemes are run in accordance with the legislation, as set out in part 5, chapter 3 of the Localism Act 2011 and the Assets of Community Value (England) Regulations 2012. That includes making decisions on whether a nominated asset meets the definition of an asset of community value, as set out in the Act. Although I have no scepticism about the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire’s intent, which a lot of us share, I remain sceptical about the Bill. The Government are already strengthening the assets of community value scheme, which I am sure the Minister will go into in her remarks, through provisions in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. That will introduce a new community right to buy that covers some of the provisions in the Bill, including, from memory, clause 9 about how people can put in a bid to own a property. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase an asset if it is put up for sale by its owner. They will have 12 months to raise funding and there will be an independent valuation process to ensure a fair price, so that negotiation is successful. That is close to a lot of the provisions in today’s Bill, so he is welcome to intervene and tell me why he thinks his Bill is different.
Mike WoodConservative
The whole point is that it really is not different—large parts of it are copied directly from what the Government introduced for assets of community value. As I said in my opening speech, though, in most cases community groups do not go through the quite complex process of getting the building facility registered as an asset of community value until there is a direct threat that they know about, as we saw with the Crooked House and as we may yet see with pubs such as the Macbeth in the hon. Lady’s constituency, which I do not think is currently an asset of community value. If those pubs came under threat, it would almost certainly be too late for the community to respond and get the community right to buy. This Bill would make sure that that right is available from day one for these really important historic pubs in the hon. Lady’s constituency and in mine.
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that clarification. We have already talked with some passion today about the pubs, heritage buildings and heritage in our constituencies that we value, so that means that we need to push for them to become assets of community value. I will give an example from my constituency: the Chesham Arms on Mehetabel Road, which was Hackney’s first ever asset of community value. That pub is 162 years old; it closed in 2012, and the owner at the time just assumed that it would be possible to turn it into flats. It is on a residential street—it is a traditional east London pub in a terrace. It is not very big; it is just a little neighbourhood pub, and when it closed there was an assumption that it would be easy for it to be redeveloped, but the council stepped in. At the time, the council was under Labour control—we also have an elected mayor in Hackney, although of course planning matters are not matters for the elected mayor—and it defended the Chesham Arms from redevelopment. It reopened in 2015; it is a real success story. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire is right, though, because the challenge was that that pub closed and then became an asset of community value. Learning from that example and from the comments that the hon. Gentleman has made, we all need to be ahead of the curve on this. Whether it is a tramshed that is a heritage building and has become a pub, a pub that has been there for a very long time or a coffee house that has become a pub—whatever the cultural issues are—we can push for those buildings to be assets of community value in a wider way than the hon. Gentleman’s Bill allows for. I suggest to the Minister and all colleagues that we take today as a call to arms for us to implement the essence of the hon. Gentleman’s Bill, without having to go through a quite complicated process that I think narrows the scope too much. There is an opportunity for us to broaden our understanding of what a culturally rich heritage site is, and push for assets of community value to be more widespread ahead of a threat arising, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says. I am not going to go through all the pubs in my constituency—we would be here for a very long time, and I am aware that other people want to speak. Needless to say, I would be very happy to arrange a tour at any point, and I am sure that the various bodies I have worked with over the years on beer and breweries would be keen to help enable that. In fact, when the current Chancellor was working in the Treasury, he was instrumental in changing the taxation of small breweries to make it possible for these craft breweries to exist—breweries that create many jobs in brewing and, of course, hospitality. They still struggle at times, but they are bucking the trend compared with a lot of our other assets, so as Members, we need to be more ambitious. We do not necessarily need to legislate for everything; the legislation is already in place, and I think we are very capable of using the legislation we have to protect the assets that hon. Members have spoken eloquently about and defended. I am happy to continue to work with the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire on the intent of his Bill, but I do not feel that this is the Bill to support. I think we can deliver on his agenda without passing the Bill today.
Rebecca Smith (South West Devon) (Con)Conservative
It is a privilege to be able to speak in the debate that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) has secured on the important topic of heritage public houses. I am very privileged to have 64 pubs in my constituency—there are a couple of Conservative clubs included in that number, which is worth mentioning. That is quite a few compared with some Members, who I know only have a handful. In particular, the more urban constituencies are not always fortunate enough to have as many pubs as constituencies that, like mine, are a nice mix of urban and rural. Given the nature of my constituency, which in large part is made up of historic villages that have either merged into the city of Plymouth or have remained as very sweet South Hams or Dartmoor villages, we have a large number of historic pubs. They would have been stopping points for travellers, potentially travelling up from Cornwall through Devon and on to London, and a key part of the community, including in fishing and rural communities. Villages such as Noss Mayo and Newton Ferrers have four or five pubs between them. They are very small, and people would be shocked at how many there are, but I can reassure Members that they maintain a healthy trade. The Mussel Inn in Down Thomas is another key country pub that serves excellent food. Plympton and Plymstock were villages before they were absorbed into the city of Plymouth. They have some very historic pubs, and I will touch on a couple of them shortly, but it is worth mentioning the village of Turnchapel. We proudly still refer to it as a village, but it is now an important part of the city of Plymouth. Turnchapel has both the Boringdon Arms and the Clovelly Bay, which are key parts of the community. Fortunately, they are being kept going by the marine autonomy work that is happening at a former Royal Marine base next door. There is the historic Drake Manor in Buckland Monachorum—hopefully, Sir Francis Drake would have been pleased to be its namesake. Milton Combe has the Who’d Have Thought It, a classic thatched pub at the bottom of a hill in a tiny little village, which serves the most wonderful food. I always make sure to go there with friends just before Christmas. We have a fantastic community-led pub in Cornwood that was recently shortlisted for one of the Countryside Alliance’s rural prizes and came all the way to the House of Commons. Although it was not a winner that day, we are very proud that it was nominated. The Old Smithy, which is not named after me, is a very good pub in Ivybridge. Those are just a few of my pubs. Like others in the Chamber this morning, I will not name all of them, but I think it is was worth putting those ones on the record. It is also worth mentioning the names of such pubs. We have heard of Woolsacks and all sorts of historic names, and we know that even the bars in Parliament are named for specific historic reasons. I particularly want to mention the Skylark in the little village of Clearbrook. If anybody is ever on Dartmoor, they will hear the skylark tweeting away across the moors. What is so wonderful about historic pubs is that their names reflect something that is either historic or specifically tied to the culture of the local community. Such names draw young people into connecting with the history. I want to make special mention of the community groups all over the country that help pubs to survive by sending people on walking routes around them, or by highlighting them through competitions. There is a thriving Facebook page called Plymouth on Tap, which runs a comprehensive competition for pubs in different communities and chooses winners. It is worth mentioning the volunteers behind such Facebook pages and websites, who do so much. Plymouth on Tap says that it is about: “Mapping Plymouth’s pub history & fighting for the ones we’ve still got.” I pay particular tribute to the organisers of that group this morning. That leads me to the value of Members of Parliament running competitions. Like many others, I have run a pub of the year competition. I am delighted that the winner over the last two years has been a historic heritage pub in my constituency, the London Inn in Plympton St Maurice, which is an old village. It is a 16th-century grade II listed building, but can still muster enough votes to have won for two years in a row. I am adding some extra categories for the year ahead to make sure that other pubs can win, but Simon, the landlord, knows that I am doing that. Hopefully, he will push for the best pub in Plympton award, and maybe—who knows?—he will win overall best pub as well. I come back to my point about the importance of heritage pubs and the stories they tell. As I have alluded to, the village of St Maurice was along a major route to London. Who would have thought that little old Plympton St Maurice was a stopping point on the way? It has an incredible history that I will not go into fully, but perhaps I should apply for an Adjournment debate on it at some point. Plympton St Maurice was the home of many fine 17th and 18th-century artists, so if anybody is waiting to speak and wishes to look up the history of Charles Eastlake or Joshua Reynolds, they will see that the London Inn may well have been frequented by them, as they were schoolboys at Plympton grammar school and then went on to be leading figures at the Royal Academy and the National Gallery. If anyone is bored this morning, they can have a look while they are listening. The London Inn sits below a ninth-century castle. Such pubs are historic not just for the buildings themselves, but for their heritage, because of the communities that they sit in. The fact that a pub is so old usually means that the community around it has been there for that long as well. That leads me to another heritage pub, the Union Inn, which is also in Plympton—as the House can tell, Plympton is a very old part of my constituency. What I love is that these buildings do not get hindered by the listings that they might have, and the fact that they are not allowed to make changes to their interiors. In the Union Inn’s case, it creatively uses its garden space, which is now the home of the Plympton Royal British Legion branch. I have attended several ceremonies with the RBL in the garden of that historic pub. Although the rooms are small and it is incredibly cosy inside, it does have land around it. I was privileged to attend a D-Day event and a VE Day commemoration event, and I know the pub will appreciate that mention this morning. Those are two clear examples of the strong community roles that these heritage buildings—by nature often constricted because of their physicality—can play in their neighbourhoods. It is worth just touching on why these heritage pubs need saving in the first place and why we need to look at this legislation today. Given the nature of their fabric, it can be harder to bring in the numbers or to diversify into serving a carvery or a particularly complicated food menu. For these heritage buildings with tiny little rooms and steps everywhere, serving food in the way that a lot of modern, purpose-built pubs do will be particularly difficult. We know that pubs are facing considerable challenges, given the economic climate and the tax increases that the Government have levelled on them, whether it is the increases in national insurance, the minimum wage for young people or business rates. Government Members will say, “We’ve done some work on business rates for pubs,” but the damage has already been done in many cases. That is yet another reason why we must protect these heritage pubs by enabling them to maintain their roles within the community and by ensuring that they cannot be turned into houses. I recently met a constituent who is starting on the journey towards securing a community asset certification for a local pub that has been sold. Ultimately, the hoops that have to be jumped through are incredibly difficult. I will not name the pub, because I do not want to ruin what my constituent plans to do and the work going on in that community to do things properly, but it has highlighted the concern in communities where these pubs exist that they could lose their public house designation and see a change of use. What my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) is doing through this legislation, which builds on what is already there, is important. The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) has highlighted the legislation that exists already. Ultimately, nobody wants to see what is often a large building in a village turned into flats or the equivalent. I grew up in the city centre in Plymouth in a community called Greenbank, which is not in my constituency, but is just outside. It is historic. It was once fields, and it has seen a lot of building over the years. I am not sure we could say it was famous for this, but on pretty much every corner was a pub. If I walked to school, I would walk past probably four or five small neighbourhood community pubs in among the terraced houses. One reason for that was that the neighbouring communities were owned by Brethren family, who would not allow any pubs in their area. That meant that Greenbank, where I grew up, made up for it in numbers, and there were plenty of pubs for anybody who lived in St Judes, Hyde Park or Mannamead in the constituency of the hon. Member for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard). However, because those pubs were not assets of community value, but were just neighbourhood pubs, they have, pretty much without exception, been turned into student accommodation—I think the Providence Inn, around the corner from where I grew up, is effectively now somebody’s living room. There is nothing worse than seeing historic pubs that were part of a Victorian neighbourhood turned into student accommodation. Indeed, the one at the end of the road that I grew up on—it would have been built as an inn on the corner of a crescent—is now student accommodation. What was once a lounge bar and a place where people could play darts or pool, or pop in and have a drink with community—people used to have friends in these pubs that they would go and see—have all been turned into properties that people are now living in. Students are great, but they do not live there the whole year, and instead we have lost that community asset. That is why this legislation for heritage public houses would be so helpful. It would ensure some control over the changes within a community that might affect the very fabric of what is going on in that area. I am not going to speak for much longer. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire is well known for his love of a good ale and is a big supporter of the APPG for ale—is it ale? I am not an ale drinker, so I never quite know the name. I drink the odd beer, but I am not a big warm ale fan. I would rather be in a nice country pub drinking a glass of wine.
With a Labrador. [ Laughter . ]
My brother’s Labrador is yellow, so I did not quite get the joke, but I like the value of it. I believe that my hon. Friend has raised some valuable points, and his Bill offers some smart safeguards. This is an important debate, because one of the things that makes the United Kingdom so special is the culture we have of community and historic pubs. We know that they were the coaching inns of the past—places of refuge and safety that people could stop at if they were travelling on long journeys—and they are a particularly British institution. I am very grateful to have been able to contribute to this debate. For those Members who have not yet clocked it, I obviously love a bit of history, so it has been wonderful to be able to talk this morning.
Linsey Farnsworth (Amber Valley) (Lab)Labour
I congratulate the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) on being successful in the private Members’ Bill ballot. Having been fortunate enough to secure a place in the ballot myself in the last Session, I know what a privilege that is, but I also know quite how much work follows. My private Member’s Bill concerned football. Between me and the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire, we have managed to cover two of my husband Martin’s favourite things in life: football and pubs. However, two of my favourite things are Amber Valley and its history, so it gives me great pleasure to have the opportunity to speak about it today. It is a fact that my political journey to this place started in the Hunters Arms in Kilburn, a village in my constituency, when I agreed to put myself forward to be Labour’s candidate in the general election. It is an honour to represent the people of Amber Valley and to have the opportunity to speak about our heritage today. This Bill centres on the importance of heritage and protecting buildings and places that matter to communities. Whether it is because of the events that took place there, the people connected to them, their architecture or simply because they have stood at the heart of a community for generations, these places help to tell the story of who we are. In supporting the principle behind the Bill, I am conscious that heritage takes many forms. Historic pubs are one important element of our built heritage, but they sit alongside the castles, manor houses, theatres, cinemas, churches and industrial buildings that tell the story of our communities. Amber Valley has no shortage of such places. We are fortunate to be home to Wingfield Manor, one of the most important surviving medieval manor houses in the country. It was built in the 1440s, and it is perhaps best known as one of the places where Mary, Queen of Scots, was held during her imprisonment. Today, the site remains closed to the public, despite enormous local interest in seeing it reopened. That is why I am proud to be working alongside Derbyshire Historic Building Trust, which has successfully secured funding for a feasibility study to explore the future of the site, with the ambition of ultimately acquiring Wingfield Manor and reopening this nationally significant heritage asset to the public. It is an exciting project, and one that I will continue to champion. Likewise, in Somercotes, the magnificent Premier Electric Theatre remains one of the area’s most striking reminders of its cultural history. Built in 1912, it served generations as a theatre, cinema and community venue before falling into disrepair. Today, local residents and Somercotes parish council are working incredibly hard to secure its future. I have been pleased to support those efforts, and I hope to see the building restored as a multi-purpose community venue capable of hosting cinema screenings, theatre productions, live music, a wide range of community events, and maybe even a bar—who knows? It has enormous potential, and it could once again become a real asset for local people. There is also the Hippodrome in Ripley. Opened in 1913, it remains one of the town’s most recognisable landmarks. It was originally a theatre, then a cinema, a bingo hall and, latterly, a bar and nightclub called Tonkers. While much of the building has been converted into flats, the historical frontage still stands. Many residents raise with me their concerns about its condition and their hopes for its future. I share those concerns and hope that in the years ahead, we can find a positive long-term future for this important part of Ripley’s heritage. All those campaigns differ slightly in their details, but they share a common principle with the Bill before us today: communities should have a stronger voice in protecting the places that matter to them. That is why I am particularly supportive of measures that empower local people. Historic pubs already benefit from a range of protections. Demolition or change of use requires planning permission. Listed pubs enjoy additional statutory protections, and local authorities have powers available to them through measures such as local heritage listings and building preservation notices where appropriate. Communities can also act to protect the places that matter to them through the assets of community value regime, which ensures that valued local institutions receive proper consideration before they are lost. Many aspects of this Bill build upon that existing framework and the wider direction of travel established through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. In particular, I welcome the Government’s introduction of the new right to buy. Communities know their local assets best, and it is only right that they are given a meaningful opportunity to step in where an important community asset may otherwise be lost.
Anna DixonLabour
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I declare an interest with regard to the point I am about to make: I know the person who runs PatchWorks, which is an evaluation consultancy. PatchWorks did an evaluation report of a community-owned pub in Tollerton that was due to close in 2019 and be turned into flats. The report states that 84% of people said that since the pub had been taken into community ownership, it was a better place to live; 64% said it helped them to make and maintain local friendships; and in general, it created trade and brought jobs and development opportunities for young people. Does my hon. Friend agree with the findings of that evaluation, which show that there is a really good case for community ownership of our heritage pubs, saving them from being closed and keeping them at the heart of our villages?
I absolutely agree. That example makes a powerful case for why it is so important to allow and equip our local communities to take community assets back into public use, so that they can celebrate them and enjoy them. Taken together, the measures that I have mentioned recognise an important principle: local people should have a stronger voice in shaping the future of the buildings and institutions that matter most to them. However, the provisions relating to the community right to buy, including the extension of the moratorium period, have yet to come into force. On behalf of the residents of Amber Valley, I would welcome an update from the Minister on when the necessary regulations and guidance will be published. Community groups across Amber Valley are keen to understand how these powers will operate in practice and, crucially, how soon they can make use of them. That is why I welcome the intention behind the Bill. While I support the objective of protecting historic pubs, I think there is a broader point worth making. The significance of a pub is not simply found in the age of its bricks and mortar; it is found in the memories made there, in the conversations held in the bar and in the communities built around it. After all, heritage is not just about buildings; it is about people. When people in Ambergate talk about the Hurt Arms, they are not simply talking about a Victorian inn; they are talking about a place that has formed part of community life for generations. Even its name tells a story, preserving the memory of the Hurt family, whose influence on the area stretches back centuries—although a lesser known story about the name of the pub involves a young me coming up with sillier and sillier names for the pub as we drove past on our way to Matlock Bath for a day out, with “The Sore Legs” being a favourite of mine back in the day. When people in Riddings talk about the Moulders Arms, affectionately known as “The Thack”, they are not simply celebrating its grade II listed status or its distinction as Derbyshire’s only thatched pub; they are celebrating a pub whose very name preserves the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge.
The hon. Lady is talking about some outstanding pubs in her constituency, but does she recognise that, because the Hurt Arms is neither listed as an asset of community value nor a registered listed building with statutory protection, it would have next to no protections without the provisions in the Bill, even after the improvements in the framework? Will she think again and support the Bill, so that pubs in her constituency such as the Hurt Arms can benefit from the community right to buy that she has spoken of?
As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am supportive of the essence of the Bill. Woe betide anybody who tried to take the Hurt Arms away from the people of Amber Valley. Indeed, when I come to the Pentrich revolution in a moment, the hon. Gentleman will understand why I would never cross the people in my constituency. As I mentioned, the Moulders Arms is preserving the memory of the skilled moulders employed at the nearby ironworks at Pye Bridge, helping to tell the story of the industry that helped to build the modern Amber Valley. Then there is the Seven Stars in Riddings, built on the site of a former chapel and dating back centuries. It later found itself connected to events surrounding England’s last armed uprising, the Pentrich revolution of 1817. Local authorities gathered information and monitored unrest, siting themselves within the pub as the rebellion unfolded nearby. If only the Pentrich Brewing Co., which opened recently, had been around back then, maybe the men would not have gotten as far as to be arrested. Even pub names that have disappeared often linger in local memory. In parts of Amber Valley, residents still instinctively give directions with reference to the Red Admiral in Codnor, despite it becoming the Poet and Castle many years ago. That demonstrates something important: heritage is not simply found in bricks and mortar. Sometimes it survives in memories, in stories and in the names that communities refuse to let go. Of course, not all pubs with community value are centuries old. Indeed, one of my concerns in debates such as this is that we sometimes risk implying that only old pubs are worth protecting or, indeed, that measures brought in with every good intention may stifle progress, particularly with buildings that have already fallen into disrepair. The truth is that today’s community pub is tomorrow’s heritage pub. What matters most is whether it serves its community. Take the Candlemaker in Ripley. The building takes its name from its former life as a candle factory. Fortunately for the business, the owners recognised that people in 2026 have rather less need for candles than their Victorian predecessors. They sensibly concluded that wine and tapas, and bringing more people into Ripley town centre, would probably do more for our local economy than trying to recreate the candle trade. As the business owners proudly put it: “Founded in 1830. Reimagined for 2026.” That strikes me as a rather good description of what successful pubs have always done. They evolve, they adapt and they find new ways of bringing people together. The same can be said for the Groovers Arms in Peasehill near Ripley. Formerly the Beehive, a traditional Victorian pub, it has been transformed into something rather different. The main event now happens not in the Victorian building, which still exists, but in a separate building at the end of the garden, which has been transformed into something beautiful. Through live music, community events and Groovefest, the pub has found new ways of serving local people and attracting visitors into the area. That adaptation, in my submission, should be celebrated, not discouraged. Equally, some pubs thrive precisely because they combine heritage with modern community life. The Dead Poets, a village pub in Holbrook, is a multiple-award-winning pub and the current Derbyshire CAMRA pub of the year. It began life as the Cross Keys, before being extensively restored and reimagined. Today it hosts quizzes, poetry events, festivals and community gatherings, as well as serving exceptional real ale and cider. Its success demonstrates that protecting heritage is not about freezing buildings in time but about ensuring that historic places remain relevant, well used and valued by the communities around them. Newer venues such as Mary Lou’s Smokehouse & Craft Bar in Ripley demonstrate how pubs continue to innovate. From the outside, one might assume that it is a traditional micropub, but once they step inside, they will find a large and vibrant venue with live country music, comedy nights, themed events, food and entertainment alongside its drinks offering. I recently dropped in with some members of Young Labour following a campaign session; I had a quick drink and then left them to enjoy themselves. I am in no position to confirm or deny whether any line dancing took place that evening, Madam Deputy Speaker—you would have to ask them! The same is true of Amber Valley’s growing micropub sector. Whether it is Tom Said in Ripley or the Tip Inn in Loscoe, these smaller venues are proving enormously popular because they offer something that people increasingly value: character, conversation and community. Their buildings may not yet qualify as heritage assets, but they are already becoming community assets. While I support protecting historic pubs where appropriate, we must also focus on helping pubs survive and thrive.
My hon. Friend is making a really important point. Newer venues are often based in community spaces and deliver the services that the clientele want. There is nothing wrong with preserving buildings, but sometimes older pubs cannot always be preserved as pubs for all sorts of other reasons —development around the area or changing demographics, for instance. This is an invidious question to ask an MP, but does my hon. Friend want to name her favourite modern pub that she thinks should be an asset of community value in her constituency?
I thank my hon. Friend for her question, but it puts me in somewhat of a delicate position. I love all the pubs in my constituency, and I will probably be tactful and leave my response there. I am very lucky to have such wonderful pubs coming up, including a lot of micropubs, one of which Members will hear more about shortly. We need to focus on helping all pubs survive and thrive. When I met publicans from across Amber Valley earlier this year I found people who were incredibly proud of what they do. They were proud of the jobs that they create and the role that they play in bringing communities together—but I would not describe them as totally optimistic. They spoke candidly about rising costs, changing consumer habits and the pressures facing the sector. Many told me that they were seeing drinking patters shift, as customers increasingly use pubs earlier in the evening and less frequently late at night. They are adapting, as pubs always have, but they want the Government to recognise the challenges they face. I welcome the support that this Government are providing, including introducing community right to buy, which will give communities a genuine opportunity to take ownership of valued local assets, and banning upward-only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies, ending a practice that has too often left businesses facing rent increases, irrespective of wider economic conditions. The Government also announced a 20% reduction in business rate bills next year—a measure expected to save the typical pub around £1,000. None of those measures alone will solve every challenge facing the sector, but together they represent practical support both for pubs and the communities that they serve. If hon. Members are now thinking that Amber Valley appears to have an unusually impressive collection of pubs, I assure them that they are correct, and any Members wishing to verify that claim for themselves would be most welcome to visit. If they do, they will find a warm Derbyshire welcome, a rich industrial and social history, and, I respectfully suggest, some of the finest pubs anywhere in the country— [ Interruption. ] Members can come and see for themselves! After all, there are far worse ways to learn about the history of a place than spending a day exploring the pubs that have helped to shape it. For those unable to make the journey immediately, there is another opportunity on the horizon. On 3 November, I will have the pleasure of pulling a pint, in Strangers Bar, of Alter Ego’s own brewed cask ale, Mr Brown, produced by the fantastic team at the Tip Inn in Loscoe and selected as Strangers’ guest beer. I do hope that Mr Brown is named after our former Prime Minister; I will have to ask. I hope Members from across the House will give it a try. If they enjoy it, I hope it might encourage them to pay a visit to Amber Valley and experience the real thing for themselves. Ultimately, that brings me back to the Bill before us. I support protecting historic pubs and protecting our heritage, but we should remember that pubs are about far more than the buildings they occupy. The best way to preserve our pub heritage is not simply to prevent demolition or conversion, but to ensure that pubs remain thriving, sustainable and well used parts of community life, because a pub without people is simply a building. It is the community inside that gives it its value, and that is why, while I support the intention of the Bill, I hope we will continue to focus not only on preserving the pubs of the past, but on securing the future of all pubs that bring our communities together.
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)Conservative
On my way home last night, I popped in at the Three Horseshoes in Shepperton—because it is on the way. This morning, when I was driving into work with my wife, she said, “What are you doing in Parliament today?” I said, “I am supporting the British pub industry.” She said, deadpan, “Trust me, you’re doing your bit already.” The debate today has been quite long, and I would like to draw attention to the comments by the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee). I would be very happy to take an intervention from him, because the official figures are in and, having checked Hansard , it seems that he mentioned Spelthorne in his speech more frequently than he mentioned his own constituency. If he wants to stand up and intervene on me so he can say the name of his constituency a few more times to even up the scores, I will of course take that intervention.
It is a case of a first time for everything: I do not think I can be accused of not making the case for Newcastle-under-Lyme as often as I can, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Ms Nusrat Ghani)Conservative
Order. Just to remind Mr Jopp: there are many more colleagues in the Chamber than Mr Adam Jogee.
Madam Deputy Speaker, you may or may not be aware that there is a rumour at large in Parliament and alive in the Tea Room that hon. Members only have to mention the name of a pub in their constituency, then send to that pub the hard copy of Hansard where the name is mentioned, and the next time they go in there, they get a free pint! That is, of course, completely untrue—a point I have had to make to the landlords of the Happy Landing in Stanwell, the King’s Fairway in Ashford, the White Horse in Sunbury and the Wheatsheaf & Pigeon on the Staines-Laleham road, a pub where I will be going tomorrow to lodge my “Save Kempton Park” banner for a week as it tours my Spelthorne constituency. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) on bringing this debate. The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Dame Meg Hillier) is not in her place anymore, but there was a genuine exchange of ideas there on whether the protections envisaged in this private Member’s Bill are required. The story of the Crooked House is a salutary one. I have in my constituency a number of very historic pubs, including the Admiral Hawke, an 18th century pub named after the former First Sea Lord and Member of Parliament for Portsmouth, and the Bells in Staines. Imagine if they were to burn down under suspicious circumstances—they are not listed and nor are they listed as assets of community value. They would be further protected under this private Member’s Bill, so I think it has merit. The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch said that her sort of “so what?” was: “Well, we should all therefore be encouraging our communities to get together if they do value their pubs and to have them registered as assets of community value.” That clearly is not happening as much as the legislation envisaged, hence this private Member’s Bill. I want to make one observation: normally, when we call pubs “Assets of Community Value”, we do so to try to protect them when they are in trouble. Let us take away the capital letters and just say that those pubs are assets of community value, encouraging all our people to invest in them by going to them. Tragically, the British Beer and Pub Association reports that this year we are on track to lose a pub a day in Britain. Some 300 have closed in the first nine months of this year. We have not had much of a sense of the challenges that they face. I will not go too political on this, but the landlords I speak to are very aware of the additional challenges: business rates, the minimum wage and employers’ national insurance. The onus is on all of us. It is tragic that, when a pub closes, everyone is up in arms, but when I ask people how often they had been there, they might say, “Oh, I went there last year.” Pubs really need our help. If the Bill were to come to a vote, I would support it but I am delighted that we have had an opportunity raise some of the issues of the British pub industry, its challenges and the protections that it needs.
Lizzi Collinge (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab)Labour
I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for raising the important issue of heritage pubs. I grew up in a small village in north Cumbria. We were lucky enough to have two pubs, both of which I worked in as a teenager—most memorably one Christmas day, when I was presented with a Mrs Santa Claus outfit to wear. As a teenager more interested in heavy metal, I was not very pleased. Those pubs were important community hubs. I feel lucky to be representing the constituency of Morecambe and Lunesdale, which has many more excellent pubs than I could possibly mention in one speech. Before this debate, I went on Facebook to ask my constituents what their favourite heritage pub was. The comments section was absolutely inundated—it was fantastic to see the passion that my constituents have for their locals. Morecambe and Lunesdale has dozens of great public houses, many with beautiful heritage features or important heritage settings. The Old Hall Inn in my town of Heysham is apparently the oldest dwelling in the borough, having been built in 1598. People can go from the Black Bull in Sedbergh to the Royal in Heysham, perhaps via a cheeky pint of Wainwright in the Albion at Arnside, looking across at the lakeland fells. They could even engage in a “west end wobble” in the heart of Morecambe, usually starting at the Exchange, possibly popping into the Constitutional Club and finding their way to the newly opened Prince Albert on Albert Road, which has a fantastic cellar that no one could guess existed from the outside. We are spoilt for choice. I invite any hon. Member here to come on a little pub crawl with me. I maintain that I have the most beautiful constituency in the country. Any visitor to our pubs will get to see every corner of it.
On her many visits to her fantastic local pubs, has my hon. Friend enjoyed a pint of Yorkshire ale? The excellent Saltaire Blonde, brewed in my constituency and named after the fantastic world heritage site village of Saltaire, is distributed nationwide. Has it found its way into any of her local heritage pubs?
I have not tried that ale. I wonder whether those of us on the correct side of the Pennines would welcome a Yorkshire pint or not—but I am sure it is delicious. Pubs are vital community assets, whether in Yorkshire, Lancashire or Westmorland. British life often happens over a pint and maybe a bag of Scampi Fries or—even better—a packet of Lancashire crisps. My tenuous claim to fame is that Wainwright Beer is named after my great-great uncle Alfred Wainwright, who was a fell walker and writer. He did enjoy a pint at the end of a walk, although I have to say that his mother, who was a strict teetotaller, would be turning in her grave at the idea of her son having a beer named after him. I have spoken before in this place about the need to have spaces in our community where people can drop by, see a mate, run into people they know or even make new friends. Much as I love the great coffee shops in my constituency like the Salty Bean, or maybe something a bit more traditional like Lewis’s, which has many heritage features, you cannot beat a swift half at the Dispensary at the end of a long week. It is about not just community—I will come back to that—but conserving important architectural and cultural buildings. The Tivoli Bar in Morecambe, which was named after the Tivoli gardens in Copenhagen, closed a few years ago, but I remember the inside of it being stunning. The Tivoli and the Queen’s Hotel in Morecambe could be fantastic assets to our town and examples of heritage buildings being preserved and put to good use; instead, they lie neglected. The Tivoli is owned by Samuel Smith’s Brewery, and despite Morecambe BID and I trying to get it and other absent landlords to engage on how we get more buildings open and working again, unfortunately we did not get any engagement from the brewery when we wrote to it back in February.
Alex BallingerLabour
My hon. Friend is making an important point about pubs that are long left derelict. In my constituency of Halesowen, the Olde Queens Head right in the town centre had been derelict for a while, but it is being repurposed to be a community centre by an excellent community group called Stepping Out, which supports young disabled people to get out and around the town. While that is not a heritage pub, I think that is a fantastic use of a venue that otherwise would go to waste. Does she have such examples from her constituency?
My hon. Friend puts me on the spot—of course I cannot remember a single example right now, but I know they are everywhere. However, the point he makes about reuse of buildings is really important, and one that I will come back to. While we can keep pubs as pubs, times change and things change, and what is important is to preserve those buildings for the use of the community, whether as a pub or not. I thank the group in his constituency for doing that. The Queen’s Hotel in Morecambe recently changed hands, so I want to wait and see what happens with that, but it sat neglected for a long time. That has a huge impact on how people feel about the town and on the businesses and landlords who make a huge effort to keep their buildings in really good condition; it is not fair that they should have to be next to those eyesores. I want to take a moment to talk about the business community across Morecambe and Lunesdale, and in particular Morecambe BID’s work in the town. I meet local businesses every week, and without doubt they are a key part of what makes a community thrive. We have loads of local businesses who are wedded to the community. They are part of it and do a lot to support it. For example, I recently met Vicki Edwards, who is a breast cancer survivor. She is raising money for CancerCare, a fantastic local charity that supports families affected by cancer. Vicki was supported in her campaign by 14 local pubs. Every venue had a collection box and leaflets on “know your normal”, which is a Breast Cancer Now campaign to help people detect suspected breast and chest cancers earlier. Many of those pubs also ran their own fundraising events for CancerCare. I want to recognise the Morecambe pubs that supported Vicki, which are the Pier Hotel, Soul Bowl, Palatine, the Bull hotel, Fisherman’s Square, the Chieftain Hotel, the Royal Bar and Shaker, the Crown Hotel, Harry’s Bar, the York, O’Nellys, Brittlestar Wine Bar, the Pestle and Mortar and the Hurley Flyer. I think even more pubs might have helped out, but that was the list in my local newspaper, so I am sticking to it. They, as always, showed the best of British businesses. I want to talk about the staff who work in these pubs. Heritage pubs often have narrow staircases and low-levelled cellars. I have worked in many a pub, and met my husband when he was running the Britannia in Lancaster, a Victorian pub that is now a block of flats. Staff in pubs work very hard, often with antisocial hours, and sometimes have to deal with some interesting customers. That is why I am proud that they now have much better employment protections through our Employment Rights Act 2025, in particular the improved sick pay situation and, of course, the increase to the minimum wage. I spent many years working on the minimum wage, and that increase is an absolutely essential part of ensuring that everyone who works hard for a living is rewarded for that. I remember the long hours, the hard work, the occasionally tricky customer, the glasswasher breaking on the busiest day of the week, of course, and the beer delivery being late. But I also remember the joy: not only meeting my husband, but the wider friendships we built, the flatmates above the pub—Stephie, Jay, Jade and Chris—and the late-night chats—definitely not lock-ins; we never did that. I still occasionally pop over to Lancaster and drop into the Gregson centre, which was originally built in 1889 for the community. I worked there twice and, 20 years later, I still see regulars who I used to serve. In fact, one of those regular’s toddler sons—who should, I swear, still be three years old—was recently on “University Challenge”. I am sure that Aliki is very proud of her son. That work history also came in handy when visiting local pubs in my constituency, where they set me up with a pint glass, a real ale pump and a glint in their eye, clearly expecting the local MP to make a right frothy mess of the pint. I particularly remember a visit before the election to the Royal, in Bolton-le-Sands, with my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West and Pudsey (Rachel Reeves). I have to say, I do pour a better pint than my right hon. Friend, and it is a proper northern pint with a creamy head, too—none of this southern nonsense with no sparkler tap. I am not having that; it is just absolutely wrong. I will turn now to the provisions in the Bill. The Bill obviously has good intent, and I share the desire of the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire to protect our heritage pubs and buildings. I mentioned the Tivoli in Morecambe and the Victorian pub where I met my husband now being flats, and they are just two examples. I do have some concerns about certain aspects of the Bill, as I do not want to create more bureaucracy in the planning system. I think one of the great achievements of this Government will be having a planning system that works to protect our assets without being overly complicated and expensive. About 70% of planning authorities in England already have heritage lists, and 11,000 of the listed buildings are pubs or inns, so pubs are already afforded strong protections through the planning system.
The hon. Lady is speaking about the local heritage listing, but does she recognise that it does not protect the interior of pubs? It does not stop anyone from going into any of those pubs tomorrow and ripping out historic beams, fittings or anything that is not physically part of the bricks and mortar of the building.
That is an interesting and important point. I will go on to mention the importance of retaining those additional features when pubs, or any buildings, are renovated. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point there. However, as he knows, proposals to demolish or change the use of pubs already require a planning application, as they are deliberately excluded from relevant permitted development rights. That allows local authorities, through the planning committee, to consider the full impact of the proposals. Local authorities have the power to issue an enforcement notice for a breach of planning control. I appreciate that in the hon. Gentleman’s case, with the Crooked House, that came far too late, and I really do share the despair he must have felt at that happening. We have talked about the heritage lists. Pubs that are formally designated as listed buildings are afforded additional protection, with listed building consent needed to demolish or undertake any works of alteration or extension that affect the listed building’s character or appearance. Failure to obtain listed building consent is, of course, an offence. I just want to say that I thoroughly support local authorities’ fully enforcing all planning consents and building regulations. There is a pub in the area where I was a county councillor that was changed into flats where the developer, frankly, had no respect for the planning process or local people and consistently and flagrantly breached the planning consents he had been given. I would support much stronger powers to prevent people like that from being able to develop in the future.
I have a similar planning challenge in my constituency, where a supporting wall that was built above a housing development has collapsed. Residents of the new build development have now spent two years waiting for that wall to be fixed without any access to their properties or action by the developer to rectify the situation. There are real challenges with rogue developers, not just in the Crooked House case, but across the board. Given my hon. Friend’s experience of planning, will she say whether the Government could be doing anything else to challenge these kinds of situations?
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. His case reminds me of my visit to a block of flats in Arnside just a couple of weeks ago. The balconies have been deemed unsafe and the developer and property management company are both trying to charge residents a huge amount of money because they have not created a proper sinking fund. They are also dragging their feet on everyday maintenance and safety issues. There is more we could do, although we are bringing in great reforms to things like leasehold and other matters. The principle is that if someone is responsible for something, they should take responsibility and fix the mess they have made, so I support my hon. Friend’s point. Communities can also take measures through the assets of community value scheme, which was introduced by the Government in 2011. Local authorities are responsible for ensuring that the scheme is run in accordance with the legislation. Rather than adding to the planning regime, it is more important to make sure that we support pubs to thrive through everyday policy. Ask any pub owner and they will talk about rising operating costs, particularly for energy, and changing alcohol consumption habits, which make it harder to make a profit. The Government are taking action on that. I am a member of the Energy Security and Net Zero Committee, which often speaks about business energy costs. I would like to flag the importance of the clean power 2030 mission to the survival of pubs and other businesses. When we go into pubs, we want them to be nice and warm, which means that they have very high energy costs. The Government are doing important work to decouple the price of electricity from the price of gas, which is set internationally and is damaged by international events. For pubs specifically, the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 will ban the use of upwards-only rent review clauses in commercial tenancies. Those clauses have meant that rents can only ever stay the same or rise, regardless of market conditions. Pubs that are signed up to the pubs code already receive that protection, but the ban will extend it to heritage pubs, further increasing support for these important institutions. I was pleased that the Government announced the 20% business rates discount for pubs, clubs and entertainment venues, which has helped to give them some breathing space. I would point out that there are other businesses very similar to pubs, like the Avanti restaurant I visited in Kirkby Lonsdale, whose owner kindly brought together a group of local businesspeople for me to speak with. They would like to see parity on that tax relief. I encourage pubs to check whether they are eligible for the £61 million community right to buy fund rolled out by the Government, which funds people in deprived areas to take over community assets—something my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Anna Dixon) talked about. Rather than relying on planning protection, which can be slow, those measures give communities agency over a place and the opportunity to operate those assets successfully. There is also the Pub is The Hub programme, which helps pubs in rural areas like mine to diversify and is backed by £3 million of Government funding. Community ownership and engagement are really important to the Government. They are strengthening them further through the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act, which will introduce a new community right to buy and give communities real power of ownership. Communities will have the first opportunity to purchase and 12 months to raise funding, which is a significant improvement. Local communities should determine which spaces and places are most important to them. A growing number of local residents across the country are stepping into the gap and saving heritage assets. There are some brilliant groups like that in Morecambe and Lunesdale. I want to give a specific mention to the Save Our Sun campaign in Dent. Dent is a beautiful village nestled in the Yorkshire Dales national park—I have three planning authorities in my constituency, which is always fun. The Save Our Sun campaign has pulled the community together to save the Sun Inn, and I wish to put on record my thanks to the group. They have done a fantastic job, and I was pleased to hear recently that they have progressed a little further.
I am pleased that my hon. Friend is backing a campaign to save a pub in beautiful Dent. The Dales way links parts of my constituency with hers, and we sometimes forget that those heritage pubs are not only part of the local community, but also provide a fantastic resting place for visitors to our areas who enjoy walking in our beautiful countryside. One pub with a very long heritage tradition is Dick Hudsons in Bingley, which lies on the edge of a popular walking route. Does my hon. Friend agree that we want to save those pubs not only for local communities but for all those who come and visit our areas to enjoy them?
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and Dent is a prime example of a place where visitors come. My constituency has so many fantastic places for visitors, whether it is the front at Morecambe, which is getting Eden Project Morecambe, beautiful Arnside, which I mentioned earlier, Milnthorpe, Kirkby Lonsdale, the whole Lune valley, or the Yorkshire Dales national park. The businesses that serve our communities all year round also serve visitors. They are fantastic spokespeople for our area, and they also show the quality of our local produce, which is important. I want to know that the provisions in the proposed statutory register would create some meaningful protection, and not add another layer of bureaucracy. I want pubs to be live assets—I spoke earlier about the fact that buildings will change over time. Our heritage and communities are not static things, and from an architectural and heritage point of view it is important that their character is not lost. If something is in its original state, but that original state is mouldering, that is not a good thing, and when preserving those features it is important that any upgrade or renovations are done sympathetically and are in keeping. I recently visited the Royal Oak in Burton in my constituency. It has done a fantastic renovation that is very sympathetic to the original building. I want us to keep our pubs open and running, to preserve those historical buildings for future generations, and to leave it possible for them to have new life when the owners so choose.
Markus Campbell-Savours (Penrith and Solway) (Lab)Labour
I congratulate the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) on bringing forward the Bill, and I bow to his superior knowledge of pubs both heritage and modern. I do not doubt how thorough his research methods have been. This is an issue of enormous importance, particularly for rural constituencies such as Penrith and Solway, where the village pub is often much more than simply a business. The Bill would establish local authority registers of heritage public houses, introduce restrictions on their sale, and create additional protections in the planning system. In many of our villages, the pub sits at the heart of community life. It is where neighbours meet, local groups gather, funds are raised for worthy causes, and people maintain the social bonds that hold communities together. The loss of a village pub can be devastating. It can fundamentally change the character of an area and leave a void that is never truly filled. I therefore understand entirely the motivation behind the Bill, and the desire to ensure that valued pubs are not unnecessarily lost. However, I wish to focus my remarks on provisions in the Bill that contain similar principles to the asset of community value framework, particularly the restrictions on sale and the opportunity for community acquisition. As I understand it, under the Bill owners of a registered heritage public house could be subject to a process including a full moratorium period of up to 12 months before a sale can proceed in certain circumstances. My question is a practical one: what happens when a community wishes to buy a pub, has local support and a business plan, but needs time and financial support to complete the purchase?
The hon. Gentleman asks a reasonable question. The answer is that the procedure and timelines in the Bill are exactly the same as those the Government introduced for assets of community value in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026. Community groups will have eight weeks to register an expression of interest, and then up to 18 months to get the bid together and complete the negotiations. As I said, if they are not able to agree the price because of an unreasonable demand from the seller, then—just as with assets of community value—the independent valuer can set the price.
I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. My criticisms of the Bill may go beyond this Bill and into some of the existing provisions. The success of these protections will ultimately depend not only on the rights that Parliament creates, but on whether communities can realistically exercise those rights. That brings me to a case in my constituency—hon. Members may be relieved to hear that it is the only pub I will mention in my speech. In the village of Ireby, local residents have spent years attempting to secure the future of Emily’s Black Lion, the last remaining pub serving a rural area of around 15,000 hectares with a population of only a few hundred. The importance of the Black Lion cannot be overstated. Public transport has been withdrawn from the village, there are few remaining public amenities, and the pub supports community events, fundraising for local institutions and the neighbouring, community-owned Globe Hall. For many residents, it is the principal social and community hub.
My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. I am reflecting on my experience in Halesowen; it is a built-up area rather than a residential area, but unfortunately, we have had real reductions in community spaces through years of Conservative cuts to local government. That means that pubs, as well as libraries and other community spaces, have become increasingly important. Does my hon. Friend agree that that makes the continuation of pubs even more vital than it was in the past?
I agree with my hon. Friend. Sometimes we can underestimate the similarities between rural areas and inner cities, where community spaces are limited. I followed the campaign of Emily’s Black Lion for a number of years, including during my time as a parliamentary candidate, when I had the opportunity to visit the Black Lion and meet members of the community group. What struck me then, and continues to impress me today, is that this was never simply a campaign to save a pub; it was a campaign to sustain a community. Local residents spoke of ambitions to develop the pub further as a café, drop-in facility and community hub serving local residents throughout the day. That ambition has only become more important as other services have been lost. During the course of the campaign, Ireby also lost its bus service. In a city, losing a pub may mean walking to the next one—although I welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen (Alex Ballinger) has just said—but in a village such as Ireby, losing the last pub can mean losing one of the last places where people regularly come together. When the future of the pub was threatened, local people did exactly what Governments of all colours have encouraged communities to do: they organised. They established a community benefit society, commissioned surveys and valuations, prepared a business plan, achieved the community share standard, launched a community share offer and raised more than £100,000 from around 200 investors, with further pledges available. On a modest estimate, the core volunteers contributed more than 1,300 hours of unpaid work to the project, including more than 800 hours from one individual alone. Think about that for a moment—more than 1,300 volunteer hours from local people who simply wanted to keep their pub alive. Most importantly, they did all of that in good faith. They pursued the route laid before them through the community ownership fund. They incurred costs, undertook surveys, assembled evidence and met every requirement asked of them, then just as they were preparing to submit what they believed was a completed application, the general election was called. The process was interrupted, and the funding scheme was subsequently closed. The Government have since confirmed that the community ownership fund is closed and there will be no further application rounds. This was devastating for the campaign in Ireby. Where are we now? I am not here to referee a dispute between the owner and the community group, nor am I here to put a value on the pub—those are matters for negotiation between the parties involved. However, the position in Ireby illustrates a wider policy question. The community group believes a purchase remains achievable with sufficient support. The owner has expressed concerns about the effect of restrictions and uncertainty on the future marketability of the property. The argument advanced by the owner in Ireby is that restrictions intended to support community ownership may, in some circumstances, discourage other purchasers from coming forward—purchasers who may wish to run a pub and secure the future of the asset. Members may or may not agree with that assessment. My point is that the argument exists. Some may argue that it is irrational, but potential buyers often are not rational. It is an argument that becomes more significant when communities do not have access to the funding required to complete an acquisition. The most effective response is not necessarily fewer protections. It may be better funding, better access to finance and a clearer pathway from community interest to community ownership. The challenge goes beyond this Bill. Parliament has recently strengthened community acquisition rights through the new community right-to-buy provisions in the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act. Those reforms extend the moratorium period and create stronger opportunities for communities to acquire valued local assets. I welcome the ambition behind those reforms, which are motivated by many of the same objectives that underpin the Bill before us today. However, I am interested in how Ministers see those rights operating in practice where communities face significant difficulties accessing capital.
My hon. Friend will have heard me talk earlier about the Premier Electric Theatre, and the points he is making resonate with me in relation to that project. The community need to raise £21,000 just to do a feasibility study in an area where there is not a lot of money in the population. Will he join me in asking the Government to see whether anything can be done to empower communities such as mine in Somercotes, where there is not a lot of money swilling around in the population?
I will. The Government are hopefully hearing the message that, if there are intentions to open any funds, we sometimes need seed money to develop business cases and feasibility studies, because that is an important part of the process. The concerns I have raised have also been highlighted by CAMRA, which has welcomed stronger community acquisition rights while warning that their effectiveness is reduced in the absence of replacement funding following the closure of the community ownership fund. The experience of the people of Ireby demonstrates precisely that point. The obstacle they have encountered is not a lack of commitment, a lack of organisation, a lack of local support or even a lack of a mechanism by which to do it. The obstacle has been uncertainty around access to capital. If Parliament is prepared to introduce a 12-month moratorium on the sale of heritage public houses, Parliament should also consider how communities are expected to use that opportunity in practice. Time alone does not buy a pub. A right to buy does not buy a pub. Financing buys a pub. I therefore ask Ministers to look again at support for community acquisition of pubs and other vital rural assets. As the Government continue the implementation of the community right to buy, how do they intend to ensure that communities have access to the finance required to exercise those new rights?
I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to what has been done in the village of Dent in my constituency, where the community has come together with a community shares approach. The point he is making about the scale of finance needed to buy community assets is really important, and I would like to see the Government provide more support, but there have been some really innovative models across the country, and I would welcome his comments on those.
As I have already commented, the community in Ireby did a community share offer and have been through that process. Having gone through that process, it made it all the more disappointing that they were unable to access any additional money. But they keep fighting on—and will keep fighting on until they have secured what they need. For isolated rural communities, those pubs are not luxuries; they are infrastructure. At a time when bus services are disappearing in rural areas, village amenities continue to decline and opportunities for social interaction are becoming increasingly limited, the local pub can be among the last remaining public spaces that bind the community together. The people of Ireby have done everything that could reasonably be expected of them: they organised, volunteered, raised the money, built a plan and secured community support. My question to the Minister at the end of my boring speech, if it has not been clear, is, “What comes next?” If we are serious about helping communities save heritage pubs—or any pub—we cannot simply give them more time. We should also ensure that they have a realistic opportunity and funding to succeed.
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Is it to do with this debate?
It is. On a point of order, the hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp)—in the pink shirt with a constituency in Surrey—intervened on my speech earlier, which led me to mention his constituency in my remarks. The hon. Member must correct the record. He said that I mentioned his constituency more than my own, which is of course nonsense and untrue. I have just checked Hansard and my notes: I made 20 references to Newcastle-under-Lyme, 14 specific references to areas in Staffordshire, six references to individual areas in Newcastle-under-Lyme, and six references to the hon. Member’s constituency. How can the hon. Member correct the record and ensure that an apology is given to me and my constituents?
Mr Jogee, I am not sure that that is a good use of a point of order, but you have indeed corrected the record yourself. We will not continue this in the overall debate, so there is no need for a point of order from Mr Jopp.
Matt Turmaine (Watford) (Lab)Labour
It is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) in this important debate. Watford and the surrounding area have a fine history of pubs and brewing. Indeed, the town has been associated with the production of beer, sold widely in the town’s hostelries, for many years. Benskins was the pre-eminent brewery in Watford, and Hertfordshire’s biggest brewer until its acquisition by Ind Coope in 1957. There were many tied houses, and many bore the Benskins name well into the 1990s. In fact, the part of Watford in which I reside has a close association with the Benskins brewery, in terms of housing provision for workers and managers at the brewer’s facilities. For many years, Watford football club, the town’s professional team, were known as the Brewers, and Benskins brewery sponsored the purchase of the club’s Vicarage Road ground, where they have played ever since—earning them the nickname the Brewers. It was subsequently changed to the Hornets, which I suspect had a sting in the tail for the Brewers—perhaps we will never know. The ground was leased to the club at peppercorn rent, and in 2001, the club purchased the ground from Punch Taverns, which had inherited the freehold as part of its acquisition of the Allied Domecq estate. In 2006, the club also purchased the freehold of the Red Lion pub opposite the ground, which remains a favourite watering hole for home fans, with away fans being accommodated at the nearby rebranded Oddfellows—formerly the Oddfellows Arms. In the interests of research and the pursuit of knowledge, I have attended both of those venues and can report that they are convivial, if tightly packed, venues that do the town proud as examples of heritage pubs. Other pubs further away accommodate a mixed fanbase, which generally works well. Although the M1 derby, with local rivals that cannot be named in here—my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South and South Bedfordshire (Rachel Hopkins) is no longer present, or else she could testify to this—can sometimes present a challenge. Returning to Benskins, the old offices, which are a three-story redbrick house in the Georgian neoclassical style, fronted the brewery itself. It was the former home of the Dyson family, built around 1775, with extensions added to the side in 1807. The house was bought in 1867 by Joseph Benskin, and the whole site continued to operate as their brewery until it was acquired by Ind Coope in 1957. Brewing continued in Watford until 1972, with the iconic chimney being demolished in 1977—the year of our late Queen’s jubilee. As a child, I spent that day on a balcony in the borders, ironically, although not deliberately, being sick—something that any novice attendee of our national heritage public houses may too have experienced. In the 1970s, the football club’s matchday programme would always contain an advert for Ind Coope, listing all its pubs and giving the names of mine host as “Mr and Mrs” with their initials and a surname. That is how it was done in those days. In the end, the grade II listed property became the Watford Museum, opened by the Watford-born actor Terry Scott. Thanks to Government funding, the museum is presently being moved to a newer, more modern venue. One of Watford’s multitudinous pubs was eventually named after Joseph Benskin. It was on the corner of Market Street, and these days it is a Gail’s. Less modern, however, is a small window set in the wall dating back around 300 years. It is documented as a surviving part of the original building. Many of the old pubs remain, while some more recently constructed ones have vanished. Watford’s council housing estates generally came equipped with at least one pub. Woodside had the Hammer in Hand and the Hare near Leveret Close, which is now a care home. Meriden still has the Badger. Holywell had the Highwayman, which is now Turpin Court, and in Courtlands Drive was the Beaver, which sadly has not been reintroduced there. I must relay an anecdote where I met the former Member for West Bromwich East in one of these heritage pubs. I was much impressed by the speed with which he was able to consume a pint of the dark brew of the Irish isle while within the Badger. Checking through “The Book of Watford”, compiled and edited by local historian Bob Nunn in 1987, it lists 90 Watford pubs that existed since 1900. Many are now long gone. He dedicates much of the tome to them. The distinctive Oxhey village has retained two pubs in the neat rows of Victorian terraces: the Rifle Volunteer and the nearby Villiers Arms. Sadly, the Haydon Arms—a bit more out of the way—was lost, and the Prince of Wales closed in 1955. Watford’s pubs are and remain social hubs. The Horns at the top of the town is famous for and still offers live music. I have enjoyed the music there many times, and it would be inappropriate of me not to mention a former Broadcasting, Entertainment, Communications and Theatre union mentor, Paul Evans, who I was lucky enough to witness playing at the venue with his band while I nervously awaited a very different impending recall for the birth of my second child. There are many countryside pubs within a short drive or walk of Watford, and in some instances a bus service remains to get people there and back. The Clarendon Arms at Chandlers Cross was a regular pit stop for walkers, and the Cart and Horses at Commonwood, Bucks Hill, was the terminus for many years of London Country’s double deckers on the 318A route, where the conductor would see the driver reverse back to the stop to lay over before the return journey to Watford. I can testify to the delights of the Clarendon Arms. My partner and I, freshly arrived in Hertfordshire’s finest town of Watford, strode our way through Whippendell wood to said hostelry and partook of its thirst-quenching delights. Perhaps less impressively, the return path was far from direct, and the sun was bidding a provocative farewell as we made our way through the snagging snicker of the woods vaguely in the right direction. It was more reminiscent of “An American Werewolf in London” than “The Railway Children”. The Sir Robert Peel was a popular pub in Watford in its own right up until 2006. CAMRA advises that the explanation for its name was its former use as the town’s police station. The Wheatsheaf does not appear to have been a particularly fortunate name for pubs locally. The one in Watford at Bushey Arches became a car showroom. Sarratt, a few miles out of town and still with a bus service, saw its pub of the same name close. There was also a Wheatsheaf in Bovingdon High Street, which has closed. It is important in this debate to namecheck a couple of my constituency’s hostelries. To that end, I mention the One Crown in Watford, which is believed to be one of the oldest pubs. In 1756, Jeremiah Friend was listed as the landlord of the venue, which suggests that is a fact. It is clearly challenging to be able to identify all these examples. I also mention the Swan, which apparently had 17th-century heritage, too. There is also the O’Neill’s, as it is now known, but to most of us it is the Flag.
My hon. Friend mentions that a pub has changed its name from a fantastic previous name to O’Neill’s. Is he concerned not just about the heritage of our pubs but the heritage of the names of pubs? Those fantastic names that have lasted for years and years and years should continue; pubs should not be rebranded with random generic chain names.
Yes, the legacy of pub names should be celebrated. It is sometimes disappointing to see the generic nature of venues in high streets. We can but hope that the interiors of those pubs continue to be sites of convivial and lively memory that can live on beyond the names. I mentioned that O’Neill’s was formerly known as the Flag. It was originally a hotel to service Watford Junction station, and I must confess to have occasionally made use of its facilities, including once when it provided much-needed sustenance to a delegation from a previous abode of mine in Hammersmith and Fulham. They, too, were delighted to avail themselves of its excellent food and drink. The Railway Arms in Bushey, which has close associations with the railway and those commuters who use it, once provided me with an opportunity to be sounded out about electoral issues in the run-up to the 2015 general election, in which I stood. In that election, I was able to relegate the Liberal Democrat mayor of Watford to third place, as Labour began its ascent back up the polls—a task that I fully intend to better at the next election. The Moon Under Water on the high street is a peculiarity as a heritage public house in that it was opened in 1995, but it has an awareness of its history that far transcends expectations. Many informative items decorate the pub, revealing the history of the town. The pub is run by Wetherspoons and is named after George Orwell’s fantasy pub. Wetherspoons’ website reveals: “In 1536, Richard Morison, the future owner of Cassiobury estate returned to England from his studies in Italy to work for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Thomas Cromwell.” Richard was granted the manor of Cashio in 1546. His wife, Bridget, founded the Bedford almshouses in 1580 to house poor women from Watford, Langley and Chenies. They remain standing to this day, and I was able to enjoy hospitality at them on one of my visits there. Heritage comes in many forms, and it would be negligent not to mention the town’s famous nightclub, Pryzm, which closed a couple of years ago. The club has known many forms, and indeed names, and rather like which Doctor Who one grew up with, it dates residents of the town to an era—for me, it was Paradise Lost. Many patrons would emerge from that nightclub in the early hours of the morning, blinking in the artificial lamppost light, seeking either a kebab or a cab—an act that has now sadly past into history. I have also been able to attend a beer festival in St John’s church, an unlikely but enjoyable setting for the consumption of fine ales. As other hon. Members have said, it is important to remember that even as we pass on, heritage is still being built today. The Mad Squirrel, where I was delighted to take a delegation of SPD members from Watford’s twin town of Mainz in Germany, was a particular favourite. I will close by reflecting that last Saturday I was in the Estcourt Tavern in Watford, which is now run by Steven and Mel, formerly of the Southern Cross, to drown my sorrows following Watford football club’s lamentable defeat. One of the town’s long-established pubs, the refurbishment has been amazing, and I wish them every success with it. That venue was the site of another political interrogation, when I was quizzed about which Miliband I had supported in the Labour party leadership election of 2010—and so began a trajectory that delivered my election to this place.
Will my hon. Friend give the House an answer as to which Miliband he supported?
Of course, I would be happy to give an answer: the right one. Figures I have seen show that in 2015 there were over 55,000 pubs, but by 2024 there were a staggering 10,000 fewer, which is sobering thought and a reminder to us all that pub closures did not begin in 2024. Pubs are the focal point for a community—public houses serving the public. I am pleased that the Government have recognised their loss over many years and that this needs to be tackled and addressed.
Sarah Hall (Warrington South) (Lab/Co-op)Labour (Co-op)
When people think about pubs, they often think first about beer, but while great beer certainly matters, pubs have always been about much more than what is poured into a glass. They are meeting places, employers, community hubs, cultural institutions and, in many cases, living pieces of local history, as we have heard a lot about today. In Warrington South, we are fortunate to have a rich pub culture, a growing independent hospitality sector and local breweries that continue a tradition stretching back generations. From Stockton Heath and Grappenhall to Latchford and Appleton, and across the wider constituency, pubs remain places where friendships are formed, local fundraising takes place, sports teams celebrate victories, families gather for meals, and communities come together in times of joy and challenge. Because pubs matter, we have a responsibility to approach legislation affecting them with care, precision and a proper understanding of the law as it already exists. The question before the House is not whether historic pubs deserve protection—of course they do. The question is whether the measures proposed in this Bill are necessary, proportionate and effective alongside the protections already available, and whether they will genuinely help pubs to survive as living businesses, rather than simply preserving bricks and mortar. That distinction is particularly important in Warrington South. Warrington has a remarkable brewing history. For generations, Greenall’s was one of the names most closely associated with our town, connecting brewing with local employment, industry and the network of public houses through which beer reached our communities. Many local people also remember the famous Tetley Walker brewery on Dallam Lane.
My hon. Friend talks about the local network connecting different breweries. Warrington might be very similar to the Black Country, in that canals were historically used to pass barrels of ale from brewery to pub. Does she have any famous canals in her constituency, and are they still used in that way?
We do indeed. We have the famous Sankey Canal, which is one of the oldest, if not the first, canal in this country. We also have the Manchester ship canal, which I am sure everybody here has heard about. For decades, the Greenall’s brewery helped to define the character and economy of Warrington. The distinctive smell of hops became part of daily life for generations of residents, and the brewery was an important local employer. Although that era has passed, brewing remains very much alive in our town. One example is the 4T’s brewery, based in Latchford and founded by John Wilkinson, who previously worked at the historic Tetley Walker brewery. Having started in a garage, 4T’s has developed from a small operation into an established independent brewery producing cask, craft, bottled and canned beers, and it is exceptional. That continuity matters. It demonstrates that heritage need not be frozen in time; it can be carried forward by people who possess the skills, knowledge and determination to adapt an old industry to new circumstances. Local breweries do far more than produce beer; they support employment, buy goods and services, supply pubs, attract visitors and strengthen Warrington’s identity. When residents choose a locally brewed pint, more of that spending remains within the local economy. Independent breweries and pubs form part of a wider network of businesses that support one another. Across Warrington, CAMRA recognises venues that champion quality beer and community spirit, including the Lower Angel, the Tavern and the Hop Emporium, among many others. Such establishments remind us that a pub’s value is not measured solely by the age of the building. It is also measured by the landlord who knows the regulars by name, the community group that meets in the back room, the local team that celebrate a victory there, and the family that has gathered around the same table for decades. A historic building may retain architectural interest after it ceases to operate as a pub, but a historic pub that continues to serve its community combines architectural, cultural and social value, and our policy should recognise all three. I am concerned that debates about heritage can sometimes become too focused on labels: we discuss whether a building is listed, whether it appears on a register or whether it meets a particular statutory definition. Those questions matter, because legal protection often depends on them, but a community’s attachment to a pub does not begin on the day a local authority adds it to a list, and neither does a pub’s cultural significance disappear because it falls just outside a definition drawn up in Westminster. Warrington has some wonderful examples of historic public houses. The Barley Mow, whose origins date back to 1561, is a remarkable timber-framed building where the ancient beams and historic panelling connect us with earlier generations. The Ferry Tavern, which was first licensed in 1762, occupies a distinctive setting between the Mersey and the Sankey and alongside the trans-Pennine trail. There are many, many more—too many to mention. These are not simply commercial premises; they are part of the character and story of our area. Once a historic building has been demolished, no subsequent register can bring it back. That is why early identification, good information, effective enforcement and timely decisions are so important. However, the lesson should not simply be that every pub requires another statutory designation. Local authorities need the knowledge, resources and confidence to use the powers that they already possess, and communities need meaningful opportunities to influence decisions before it is too late. Pubs are already protected by the planning system. Proposals to demolish a pub or change its use require a planning application, because pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant permitted development rights, so an owner cannot simply assume that a pub can be demolished or converted without scrutiny. The local planning authority has an opportunity to consider the proposal, assess its impact and apply the relevant planning policy.
My hon. Friend continues to make an excellent speech. On the subject of planning systems and frameworks, does she share my concern that, despite the good intentions of this Bill, the additional layers of bureaucracy that may be put on the owners of a pub, planning authorities and others might cause more friction in the system than is intended?
I absolutely agree. I think we need to focus on ensuring that the current legislation is more robust and is enforced, rather than adding extra layers, as my hon. Friend says. The current policies already act as an important safeguard, so creating another legal requirement will not necessarily produce a better practical outcome. Local planning authorities already have powers to issue enforcement notices where there has been a breach of planning control, and non-compliance with an enforcement notice can result in an unlimited fine on conviction. That is a substantial sanction. The challenge is ensuring that breaches are identified, investigated and dealt with promptly. There is an important difference between a lack of legal power and a failure to use existing powers effectively. Local planning authorities can also create local lists of buildings of historic architectural interest, including heritage pubs. These non-designated heritage assets receive consideration through the national planning policy framework when relevant planning decisions are made. That matters, because heritage is not restricted to nationally famous landmarks. A pub can be central to the identity of a neighbourhood without meeting the criteria for a statutory listing. There is also a building preservation notice; where a local planning authority considers that a building of special architectural or historic interest is at risk of demolition or harmful alteration, it can serve a notice and apply for the building to be considered for listing. These are already meaningful tools. The practical question for Warrington South is whether our council has the information and the resources it needs to identify vulnerable historic pubs and make effective use of those powers. The importance of a pub is often best understood by the people who use it. The assets of community value scheme, introduced through the Localism Act 2011, allows communities in England to nominate buildings or land that further the social wellbeing or social interests of their community. The local authority considers whether the nomination meets the statutory definition and decides whether the asset should be listed, giving residents a formal way of saying, “This place matters to us, and its importance should be recognised.” Residents are often best placed to explain why a particular pub matters. It might provide a meeting place for older people or host organisations and all the other great things that have been identified before, but an asset of community value listing is not an absolute guarantee that a building will remain open as a pub. The existing scheme provides a process for community involvement when a listed asset is put up for sale, but it does not generally compel the owner to sell to a community group or to accept its offer. That distinction matters.
My hon. Friend raises a good point about involving the community in assets of community value. We are talking about heritage pubs. Pubs absolutely have a value to the community, but if the community decides that it wants to use them for a different purpose, is the asset of community value not a better mechanism for doing that than the Bill we are debating?
Absolutely, and I will move on to the community right to buy, which is incredibly significant here. The English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 is intended to give communities the first opportunity to purchase an asset of community value. As a Labour and Co-operative MP, I am incredibly passionate about giving power to communities to run things, as they know how they would serve and fit in their areas. That is incredibly powerful, and I would love to see more of that.
I totally agree with my hon. Friend about the importance of communities being able to take over important buildings of community value, including heritage pubs, which is what we are talking about today. In the centre of Bingley we have Bingley pool, the old swimming pool, which is really important to local people. The Friends of Bingley Pool want to take it over as a community asset, but they are getting little support from the Reform-led council. Does my hon. Friend agree that we need supportive local government to help to implement these policies?
Absolutely, and I am a big advocate for communities taking over things like leisure centres. In Warrington South, the community is taking over sports pitches as well, because they are better able to access the funding they need, and they know what the demands are in the area and are best placed to support and reinvest in those things. I encourage all local authorities to get behind this incredibly powerful provision. As we have said, the Bill could represent a substantial change in the opportunities available to communities seeking to acquire their local pub. The purpose of the legislation should be to make it easier for residents to save a valued pub, not leave them navigating an unnecessarily complicated set of rules. For Warrington South, that means listening to residents, community groups, publicans and local businesses about what would genuinely help them.
The hon. Lady spoke about the Ferry Tavern in her constituency—an 18th century pub, like the Crooked House was—which is not an asset of community value. Does she think that is because her residents do not care about it, or is it because of a failure on the part of the council or a gap in the system?
It is an incredibly valued and unusual pub, which is very much loved in the community. I would welcome anyone coming along to see it. If we want to understand why pubs and brewing matters to Warrington, we have to look beyond buildings and planning applications to the events that bring people together. One example of that is Warrington Oktoberfest. Last week, I sponsored a barrel at this year’s event.
Oh yes?
Yes, and it was excellent. Many people know Oktoberfest as a chance to enjoy great beer, live music and time with friends, but Warrington Oktoberfest is much more than that. At its heart, it is a community-led charity event that has brought people together for nearly three decades while raising money for good causes locally and internationally. The festival, held at the local Parr Hall, began with a relatively small gathering of real ale enthusiasts 30 years ago. The idea came from Cliff Houghton, a member of Warrington rotary club who was also a master brewer at a local brewery. Through the commitment of volunteers, that modest initiative grew into a major fixture in Warrington’s calendar, offering a wide range of beers, ciders and entertainment, and opportunities for people to come together. Since the festival’s inception, it has raised more than £350,000 for charity.
May I join my hon. Friend in congratulating the organisers of that festival on the charitable contributions they have made? I would also like to congratulate the organisers of the Halesowen beer, cider and gin festival at Halesowen cricket club. They have done fantastic work to bring the community together in Halesowen to enjoy all those different drinks and contribute to the community.
I echo those comments. Our event has been supporting incredible charities in our town such as St Rocco’s hospice and the homelessness charity Room at the Inn, as well as many international charitable projects.
I wish to put on the record one of our fantastic local beer festivals. The Bradford beer festival run by CAMRA takes place in Saltaire town hall. One particularly noteworthy thing is that it links up with local heritage pubs around Saltaire so that they are part of the wider festival. The Bradford beer festival not only celebrates our fantastic locally brewed beers from Goose Eye Brewery and Bingley Brewery but makes sure that heritage pubs such as Fanny’s Ale House and the Beehive in Shipley benefit from the people coming for the festival.
Yes, that is a wonderful thing. It is also a great way for the local community to see what is on offer locally that they might not otherwise know about. Our event is organised and hosted by rotary members and volunteers; there is no large paid workforce behind the scenes. Its success depends on people giving their time and energy to support their community. That is something worth celebrating. Warrington rotary will soon mark its centenary, reflecting a century of service to the people of Warrington and beyond. Oktoberfest is a powerful example of that spirit of service in action. The festival illustrates that beer and hospitality are not simply about what is served across the counter; they are about volunteering, local identity, charitable fundraising, entertainment and friendship. It also demonstrates the connection between brewing and the wider community. A brewery supports suppliers, distributors, retailers and pubs. A pub provides a place where those relationships become part of everyday life, and events such as Oktoberfest bring people together and demonstrate how hospitality can support wider charitable and economic activity. The festival also highlights the important distinction that heritage needs to be sustained, not just celebrated. Its success depends on organisers, volunteers, sponsors, customers and a programme that people actually want to attend. A historic pub faces the same basic reality. If we want pubs to remain part of our communities, we must consider how heritage protection fits alongside measures that help businesses trade successfully. The objective should be a living heritage: buildings that are cared for, businesses that can operate, and communities that continue to use and value their local spaces. All that matters because a pub’s survival can depend on the relationship between its rent, turnover and operating costs. If a business faces a period of weaker trading, an inflexible rent review mechanism can make an already difficult situation harder to manage.
My hon. Friend is talking about the costs of pubs, which are incredibly important. Publicans in my constituency talk about not only energy costs but business rates and other challenges. Does she agree that the steps that the Chancellor is already making to reduce business rates for pubs will help publicans and heritage pubs in particular to continue? Will she support other measures to move business rates from the high street as well as pubs to larger online businesses, as is being proposed?
That is incredibly important. Such measures will make a big difference to businesses, and any little bit of help would be fantastic at this time. I speak a lot to publicans in my constituency about the issue. The fundamental question at the heart of this debate is what exactly we are trying to preserve. If the answer is an architectural asset, the planning and listed buildings systems provide important tools. If the answer is a building with historical significance for its community, local heritage lists and assets of community value provide routes for recognition. If the answer is the opportunity for a community to take ownership of a pub when it is sold, the community right to buy is directly relevant. If the answer is a business that needs to operate on sustainable commercial terms, tenancy rules and wider economic conditions also matter. The answer is often all those things at once, but different problems may require different solutions. A pub can retain its exterior while losing its historic interior; it can retain its architectural character while ceasing to function as a pub; and it can be purchased by a community group and still struggle to cover its costs. Equally, a pub that is not nationally listed may remain a thriving centre of community life for generations. The challenge is to design legislation that recognises those differences, rather than treating every heritage pub as if it faces identical risks. The question is not whether heritage matters—it plainly does; it is how Parliament can best protect it. I want to bring this debate back to the people and places of Warrington South. When we speak about the borough’s brewing heritage, we are discussing a history of work, enterprise and community. When we speak about 4T’s Brewery, we are discussing the continuation of brewing traditions and the entrepreneurial spirit that keeps them alive. When we speak about historic pubs, from the Barlow Mow to the Ferry Tavern, we are discussing buildings that connect us to earlier generations. When we speak about Warrington Oktoberfest, we are discussing volunteers, charities and residents coming together to turn community spirit into practical support for others. Those things deserve attention from Parliament. But the best way to protect them is not necessarily to create the largest possible number of new legal requirements; it is to identify the risks accurately, use existing powers effectively and ensure that any new powers address a genuine gap. It is to support independent brewing and the hospitality businesses that give local products a market and to consider a building’s heritage alongside the economic circumstances that determine whether a business can continue to operate. Warrington has a proud brewing history and its pubs are part of the social and architectural story of our town.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; she is giving me a run for my money in terms of the length of her contribution. Does she agree that the description she has just shared with the House, on the importance of breweries, pubs and so on to her community, extends right across the United Kingdom? On Wednesday, I was in Derry/Londonderry with the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. We went to a brewery there and met the family running it. We saw the blood, sweat and tears that they put into it. As much as we are enjoying Warrington, I wanted her to give thought to breweries and pubs right across the United Kingdom.
I suppose I can do that, but Warrington is superior—we know that. [ Laughter. ] Our heritage deserves to be protected, understood and passed on to each generation. For Warrington South, the stakes are not theoretical. They concern the preservation of our industrial history, the future of our independent brewing and the places where our communities continue to meet. The ultimate measure of success will not be how many pubs we place on a register, but how effectively we protect the heritage that matters, how many communities are given a genuine opportunity to save the places they value, and whether those places can continue to play a living part in our towns and villages.
Kevin Bonavia (Stevenage) (Lab)Labour
I add my thanks to the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood). This is a really important topic and I think every Member here today has done a sterling job in speaking up for the public houses in their communities. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (Sarah Hall) just hit the nail on the head in her comprehensive contribution. The point is that we have to be very careful about what measures we take in this place in trying to support the pubs that we care for and love. We have to think about all the ways in which we can help pubs. First, what do we all agree on in this House? I think we all agree that pubs are at the heart of our shared national identity. For centuries, they have provided the places where strangers will socialise, friendships are formed, local traditions are sustained and communities come together. They are part of our national story, but they are also part of the everyday lives, here and now, of people in towns and villages across the country. There are those who, if trying to survey the worth of a public house, would start by evaluating the land it is built on and the size of its rooms, surveying the roof and the foundations for damage and so on. But I believe that what we have heard from Members today is an understanding that that method would fall far short of the true value that a pub holds in our community. It is more than the sum of its parts and the fabric of its building. It is centuries of conversation echoed off its walls, the generations of locals who have passed through its doors and worn the floorboards smooth, and the warm embrace it provides to individuals and families. It is knowing that you are in your local, that you are with friends and neighbours, and that when a stranger comes in you introduce yourself to them. You hear what is going on and keep in touch not on your mobile phone, but with living human beings. A pub can serve as a living memory of the community in which it sits. That is why it is the clearest embodiment of heritage that I can think of. Despite the many differences in life today compared with the past, and changes in how many of us think of pubs, change is not unique to our time. I represent Stevenage, a town with a distinctive place in our national history as Britain’s first post-war new town, 80 years old next month. Do come along and celebrate with us.
My hon. Friend mentions the new town status of his constituency. I wonder if he shares my thought that it presents a model for how new towns may be able to be rolled out elsewhere in the country.
My hon. Friend, also from Hertfordshire, makes a really important point. There are lessons to be learnt from new towns, including how we place pubs at the heart of our community. Stevenage is salutary in that respect. When the pioneers of Stevenage put our town together, they thought very carefully about the place. Many people deride the concept of 15-minute towns as some kind of conspiracy to try to keep us trapped in our homes—far from it. The pioneers of Stevenage thought that community centres had to be no more than 15 minutes from where people live, and at the heart of that community neighbourhood would be the pub. In every neighbourhood you go to in Stevenage, you will find a pub—or a former pub, and that is the point.
I am enjoying listening to my hon. Friend talk about his new town. My town is an old town; it received its charter from King Henry II in 1173. Does he agree that it is not just in new towns where we see examples of the contribution that pubs can make, but in ancient towns like Newcastle-under-Lyme?
I am very happy to agree with my hon. Friend. As I was just about to say, I represent the UK’s first post-war new town, but it is built around an old town, in which I live, that still has 10 pubs along its high street. That high street is part of the Great North Road from London to Edinburgh. It was the first overnight stop for coaches, and we still have examples of coaching inns, the Red Lion being the most famous. In the old town we also have the Mulberry Tree, which was once the White Lion. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray) talked about the Tolbooth Tavern on the Royal Mile having been a prison, among other things. The White Lion was also a prison, for Napoleonic prisoners of war 200 years ago. It became a vestry and a fire station, and it is now perhaps the liveliest pub down the high street on a Friday night. Where I live, the pubs on our high street are thriving—as I said, we have 10—but across the new town, where the nearest pub should be 15 minutes’ walk away, some of those pubs have gone, such as the Twin Foxes. The oldest pub in the new town, in Bedwell, is now a block of flats, which is a salutary warning from many years ago that ensuring that pubs survive is really difficult.
My hon. Friend is celebrating his post-war new town. Saltaire in Shipley is one of the original model towns, built by the great factory owner Sir Titus Salt, who was also a philanthropist. He built many things in that village for the community—a church, a school, a library, high-quality homes and some almshouses—but one thing he did not put in the village was a pub. He was a religious man, and he decided that it was not a good thing for his workers to have access to a pub. As a consequence, the historic Victoria pub—now grade II listed—was built on the edge of Saltaire in 1875, but it had to be on the outskirts. Sadly, it is now a pubco and is seeking a tenant for its ongoing use, which shows some of the challenges for our pubs. I would—
Order. It is an intervention, not a speech.
My hon. Friend makes a really important point: we need places to come together, whether we are drinking alcohol or not. In the old town in Stevenage, we have plenty of pubs. We also have lots of buildings that were pubs but are still meeting places. Conversely, we have buildings that were used for other purposes but are now pubs. For example, we have a snooker club that is now partly a microbrewery with a taproom. That has benefited from the previous Labour Government’s encouragement of microbreweries, and it has a nod to its heritage.
My hon. Friend is giving an important speech. I was reflecting on the town of Stevenage only being 80 years old. In the Bill, heritage pubs are defined as those that are more than 150 years old. Although that is important—there are many pubs of that age, including in my constituency, and the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) has some fantastic ones in his area—is the Bill not exclusionary of new towns which have that heritage?
My hon. Friend makes a really important point. The hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire says that the Bill is for pubs that are beyond the age of 150, but the fact is that the implications of wording matter in legislation. I would have framed the Bill in a different way. More importantly, we do not always have to introduce new laws in this place; we should think about how we can better implement the laws that already exist. I will turn to that in the final part of my contribution. On heritage, and new places that will become future heritage pubs, the Six Hills Taproom in Stevenage’s old town has a nod to its heritage. Its most famous brand of microbrew beer is the Six Hills brand.
I am very interested to hear about that brewery. What would my hon. Friend order if he were there now?
I was there last week. It does samples of all its beers and I tried a few tiny samples, although I made sure not to have too much. I currently like its stout, which I would recommend as my personal favourite. It is all named after the six hills, which anyone who comes into Stevenage will see. They are Roman burial mounds, so it is a nod to Stevenage’s ancient heritage—we are far more than just a new town. Across our new town, what we do with our pubs is important. We are not supposed to talk about politics in pubs, but I wholly disagree with that. Before I became an MP, and since I have been one, I have been promoting pints with politics in local pubs—“Have a bev with Kev”—and, importantly, local residents have come in. Some people older than me who have never voted have come to say, “Why should I vote? What is this politics thing all about?” In a place like this we might almost belittle that, but we absolutely should not. We must get into our communities, and there is no better way than getting into our pubs. That is why it is so important that we in this place protect and enhance our pubs.
My hon. Friend is making an important point about engagement with communities inside pubs. I go to some of the more deprived parts of my community and pop in for a pint after some door knocking. The people I talk to are completely disillusioned with politics, but the opportunity for them to engage with their Member of Parliament, in a space that they are comfortable in and among their community, is vital. I celebrate and congratulate my hon. Friend on doing that, and encourage more of my colleagues to do the same.
I am sure that all Members of the House do our best to get out to wherever our constituents are, and there is no better place than the local pub. Beyond Stevenage, I also represent four villages: Knebworth, Codicote, Datchworth and Aston. In Knebworth we have the Station, which is a pub that was not going to survive. It was built around the station over 100 years ago, and it became an asset of community value when councillors, residents and the parish council came together and were able to buy it. Members are welcome to pop into the Station if they are lucky enough to have a ticket to Oasis, who are playing six concerts at Knebworth Park next summer.
Are you going?
My hon. Friend asks whether I will be attending, and I really hope that I can, but whether or not people are there for Oasis, they should please come and see Knebworth. Before Oasis made their name in Knebworth in 1996 they started out in a pub, the Man in the Moon, in Stevenage.
Having been an attendee at that concert in 1996, I wish to ask my hon. Friend whether he is aware that Liam Gallagher also frequented pubs in the neighbourhood where I grew up, and his favourite pint was a Guinness.
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. Far be it from me to cast aspersions about where Liam Gallagher has been drinking around the country, but I am sure wherever he goes, he brings joy to the venues he attends. The point about the Man in the Moon in Stevenage is that although it is only a few decades old, we need to make sure that it is remembered for its heritage over those decades, not hundreds of years ago. That is a point that I do not think this Bill addresses head-on. The Rose & Crown in Aston is another pub that was not going to survive. In that case, residents bought community shares in the pub and it survived, so we have two examples of pubs surviving in my constituency. That is great—the mechanisms are in place, but people need to be willing to come forward and need the funds to do it. To come back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours) said earlier, we need to make sure that when the community has that will, it also has the ability to purchase and run these pubs. That is no mean feat, and it is not simply about legislation; we have to think far more about how we make that possible. I hope the Minister can touch on that issue in her winding-up remarks. I have given the House examples from Stevenage of why protection of our pubs matters. As has been said by other Members, we already have protections in place, and new ones will come in this year and next through the devolution Act. I encourage other communities to take advantage of those protections, but beyond that, we need to make sure that we are protecting existing pubs and other enterprises.
The hon. Gentleman has referred to a number of important and valuable pubs in his constituency, but none of them seems to be an asset of community value. That system has been in place for 15 years. If it is an effective protection, why does he think so few communities have registered their important pubs as assets of community value? What has prevented them from doing so?
We could have a whole debate about the reasons for that, outside of today’s Second Reading debate. One of the most important reasons, I think, is that the community needs to be given the ability, awareness and wherewithal to do it in the first place. It is not just about making laws; what really counts is what we do with them. As such, while I am pleased that new legislation is coming in that is going to help protect pubs regardless of what happens to today’s Bill, and while I am pleased that this Government have made such an effort to support existing pub businesses around the country—remember, one in six pubs were lost during the tenure of the last Government—
Will my hon. Friend give way?
I will.
I was just reflecting on the exchange about assets of community value. I have many people in my constituency who want to support pubs, set up community spaces and support and set up charities, but there seems to be a gap in education—in giving the community the tools to enable them to do that. I know that this topic is slightly adjacent to the Bill we are debating, but because we can also talk about heritage pubs as part of that, does my hon. Friend think that local government has a bigger role to play in providing that education to communities that want to take that step?
That is a really important point—we have to use all the tools at our disposal. We as individual Members of Parliament cannot do that alone; we need to work with our communities. There is no better example than our local authorities, but beyond that, it was the parish councils in Aston and Knebworth that made possible what I have described. They were the ones who went out and put the letters through letterboxes, and all of that. Really, that is what matters—it is human beings who make our pubs, and that is where I want to end today, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is about making our pubs places for people.
Dr Peter Prinsley (Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket) (Lab)Labour
This has been a very interesting debate, which has been very long. Perhaps like many other hon. Members, I am beginning to feel the need for a beer. First of all, I should like to thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for bringing forward this very interesting debate. Members may notice that he is wearing a tie that is the same as mine—it is the tie for the APPG on beer. I would like to recommend that all Members present consider membership of the APPG, as I can see it is something in which we all have an interest. The APPG holds a marvellous dinner in the ballroom of the Institute of Civil Engineers once a year, which I have now been to twice. I should like to recommend it to all Members.
As a member of the APPG on beer, could my hon. Friend recommend his favourite beer?
I will come to that in a moment. I certainly do have a favourite beer. [ Interruption. ] If you’ll allow me one moment—
Order. Do you need your phone and your papers?
I have something written on my phone, which has been sent to me, that I would like to read.
As long as it is on topic, Dr Peter Prinsley.
It is absolutely on the topic.
While my hon. Friend thinks about the contribution he is about to make, the hon. Member for Melksham and Devizes (Brian Mathew) and I had the pleasure of visiting my hon. Friend’s constituency not that long ago. The sad thing is, we did not manage to visit a pub. If we had, which one should we have gone to?
I am grateful for that question; I shall answer it. In April 1911, The Bury and Norwich Post listed 79 hostelries in Bury. By 2019, there were only 21. Here is a little ditty about them: “The ‘Three Kings’ joined in the sport and chased him round a ‘Wheatsheaf’ to the ‘Suffolk Hunt’ onto ‘Cupola House’ where the ‘Red Lion’ stopped their sport. Looking for more fun a ‘Swan’ was seen near the ‘Elephant and Castle’ looking for the ‘Market Tavern’ when the ‘Old Angel’ came along and led it astray to the ‘Rutland Arms’ and sent for the ‘Shepherd and Dog’ to convey it to the ‘Railway Tavern’ to be packed up with the ‘Saracen’s Head’ and sent as a present to the ‘Cricketers’ (who were having dinner at the ‘Dog and Partridge’). On their way, the ‘Ram’ saw the ‘Half Moon’ in the ‘Nutshell’ and did a ‘Star’ performance amongst the old curiosities, knocking down ‘Three Horse Shoes’, exploding an old ‘Cannon’ and blowing off the ‘Kings Arms’ which were sent to the ‘Joiners Arms’ to be repaired; after which he went to the ‘New Inn’ for refreshments which made him a bit lively and getting all the ‘Taps’ to join him they went to the ‘Suffolk Shades’ to empty the ‘Gallon Can’ which they did to their sorrow for the police had to send them to ‘Ipswich (Arms)’ to get sober. They were last seen near the ‘Tollgate’ singing, we are all ‘Jolly Good Fellows’ and that’s that!” I apologise for reading that out.
I really enjoyed that, but the one thing my hon. Friend did not do was answer the question I put to him before he performed, which was: where should the hon. Member for Melksham and Devizes and I have gone when we were in his constituency?
My hon. Friend must have a moment more patience, for I am coming to that. Pubs have been at the heart of life in Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket for centuries. They are part of our history, our local economy and our communities, and my constituency has no shortage of remarkable stories to tell. Greene King has brewed in Bury St Edmunds since 1799. Its Level Head beer has made it into the Strangers Bar. I feel that the Chancellor should be offered a pint before the Budget, for if ever there was a speech that required a level head, that is surely it. But Greene King is not living on its history. Last year, I joined the company as work began on its new £40 million brewery at the Suffolk business park, which will be completed next spring. It will keep brewing in Bury St Edmunds, sustain local employment and make production more sustainable. Now, that is heritage and growth working together. At the all-party parliamentary beer group dinner to which I referred, Mr Nick Mackenzie, the chief executive of Greene King, was sitting at my table and was given the Community Hero award for the actions that Greene King has taken in the community in Bury St Edmunds. It is a fantastic local business. I mentioned that to our former Prime Minister, who said that he would be content to come and open the brewery when it opens next spring. I said to him, “All we need to do now is organise a parliamentary piss-up in a brewery,” and he said, “What could possibly go wrong?”
What a magnificent story! I just want to reflect on the community value that pubs and breweries can add, on top of their location and heritage. In my constituency, the Hunting Tree pub has recently been taken over by new owners, who are doing a fantastic job at bringing in families through activities in the garden, while raising money for Guide Dogs. Could my hon. Friend talk about other examples in his constituency of where the community has benefited not just by going to the pub, but through the activities of pubs and breweries?
Order. Before you get to your feet, Dr Prinsley, I remind you that you are speaking through the Chair. I must not be staring at your back.
I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is well known that Charles Dickens stayed at the Angel hotel in 1835, and it later featured in “The Pickwick Papers”. He returned regularly to give readings next door. Two centuries on, guests can still stay in the very same room associated with his visits. Of course, most hoteliers would simply settle for a good online review. The Masons Arms occupies a building dating back to the early 16th century. In Stowmarket, the Royal William, a traditional backstreet pub that was granted its licence only in the 1960s, serves real ale by gravity. There are plenty of things I would like to see modernised, but certainly not that. I come to my favourite pub, the Nutshell. [Hon. Members: “Aha!”] It is listed in the “Guinness Book of Records” as the smallest pub in the country, at just 15 feet long by 7 feet wide, complete with a mummified cat. In 1984, an extraordinary 102 people and a dog called Blob reportedly squeezed inside. Any of us who struggle to find a seat at Prime Minister’s questions should count their blessings. Stowmarket once had a pub called the Hop Pole Tavern, which had a railway siding running all the way through it. I support travelling to the pub by train, but that was taking integrated transport rather too literally. I have already read out one of the ditties about Bury St Edmunds’ pubs, so I shall not tell the House another one, although there are several.
I thank my hon. Friend for addressing the question posed by our hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Adam Jogee) about his favourite pub, but I am still waiting in suspense to learn what his favourite beer is. Could he please put me out of my misery?
I will come to that— [ Laughter. ] But I want to make a more serious point. As we know, sadly, many pubs have disappeared. I understand that we lost something like 7,000 pubs during the 14 years of Conservative rule, and we continue to lose them. Anyone who walks around our towns or drives through the country can see closed-down pubs, but habits have changed and laws have changed. Some of these laws are exceptionally good ideas. For instance, the law about drink-driving is an excellent idea and has saved thousands of lives. I recall my father, who was a physician, telling me years ago that if people were caught drink-driving following an accident when he was young, the fact that they were drunk was regarded as an excuse. Times have moved on considerably.
Yesterday the Ripley fair was opened on the marketplace of Ripley by the mayor. It is the 775th fair. On the subject of drink-driving, several pubs are on that marketplace and I dare say that some people will be frequenting them before going on the dodgems. I wonder what my hon. Friend would have to say about that.
I would say that it is probably a poor idea to fill oneself up with alcohol and then go on the dodgems. I think it would exacerbate the vestibular upset.
My hon. Friend mentions that his father, too, was a physician. I wonder whether their opinions differ on whether more healthy benefits are to be derived from lager or bitter, based on their experience?
Lager, in my time, was regarded as a sort of new-fangled drink that was drunk in other countries. In Yorkshire in those days very few people drank lager. I also want to talk about the smoking ban—I did say I was going to have a serious section in my speech. One of the reasons why people have stopped going to pubs is because there is no smoking allowed in pubs. Stopping smoking is one of the best things we have done. The Tobacco and Vapes Act 2026, which sets out that people will have to be older and older in order to buy cigarettes is, in my opinion, the single best thing that we have done. That single measure will save more lives than anything else we are likely to do in this Parliament. I applaud that, but I recognise that it has had consequences for pubs, where people would gather to drink beer, smoke and have good cheer.
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point about the health benefit of the cigarette ban in pubs. I, too, welcome the Tobacco and Vapes Act and the measure to increase the age limit periodically so that people who are young today cannot smoke. Do you think that, because there has been such a reduction in number of people who are smoking, especially at a younger age, in due course it may become a benefit for pubs? The drag of no longer being allowed to smoke inside would no longer be a problem because people are not smoking.
Order. Before Dr Prinsley gets to his feet, I remind Members that there should be no “you” or “yours”, because they are speaking through the Chair.
I simply think that the smoking ban is an utterly brilliant thing to do. I cannot predict what will happen to pubs as a result of it, but it has not been good for country pubs. Before I conclude, I want to make one remark about the issue of supermarkets and the cost of beer in convenience stores. In the convenience store at the bottom of my street, it is less expensive to buy a slab of lager than to buy a slab of Coca-Cola. Something has gone seriously wrong with the pricing arrangements for beer. I see that Greene King has now discontinued its off-licence production and will now only sell beer in pubs. I would like very much to see something done within our tax system to make it much less attractive to buy alcohol in convenience stores and supermarkets.
I wonder whether my hon. Friend is aware of the Society of Independent Brewers and Associates’ campaign “Drop the Tap Tax”, which seeks to lower the alcohol duty on beer sold in pubs specifically via hand-pulls and keg taps. Would that be something that he would like to discuss with the Chancellor over a pint of Greene King, which is perhaps his favourite beer?
I would very much like to speak to the Chancellor over a pint of beer about quite a number of things; perhaps that is something that I could request. I simply cannot go on with this speech forever, but let me say that I welcome many aspects of the Bill. Its ambition to identify and protect heritage pubs is welcome, but a simple register will not pay the electricity bill. Protection must go hand in hand with helping pubs to adapt, remain accessible and, crucially, stay commercially viable. I want the next generation to know our pubs not only from old photographs, but from Sunday lunches, quiz nights and conversations with neighbours. They must not be left as empty buildings. We must keep them alive. Let us protect their history and give all our locals a future worth drinking to.
Chris Murray (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (Lab)Labour
It is a pleasure to take part in this debate; I have had a very enjoyable tour of the historic pubs of England this afternoon. I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for introducing the Bill. It is an important moment that has given us all an opportunity to pay tribute to the outstanding contribution that heritage pubs make not just to just the communities we represent, but to the fabric of our national identity in the UK. We have heard contributions from across the House and the country about the amazing pubs that we have. The hon. Member said that the case of the Crooked House was the genesis of the Bill. Although I never got the opportunity to visit that pub, the case was an outrage. I vividly remember the coverage and understand completely the argument that something so appalling should never have been allowed to happen. Heritage pubs are crucial. There are so many in my constituency, and I do my best to support them as the local Member of Parliament by visiting them all assiduously.
Has my hon. Friend succeeded in that task?
I do not know if that is possible, but I assure my hon. Friend that I am putting my shoulder to the wheel and doing my best. While I support pubs as a patron, I am afraid I cannot claim to have supported them behind the bar. As a young man, I got a job in a pub and managed to last one day before being sacked because I was completely incompetent. Pubs in Scotland and the rest of the UK face pressures, but issues like upkeep costs, building maintenance and the higher bills associated with an historic site can result in extra pressures for heritage pubs. Although the Bill applies only in England and Wales, let me be the voice of heritage pubs in Scotland in this debate, because I think the perspective from Scotland will be instructive for Members in understanding the shared challenges our pubs face on both sides of the border. As a passionate believer in the United Kingdom, I passionately believe that while we have different ecosystems and face different challenges, what unites us is far stronger than what divides us. We can learn so much from and support each other. The pubs in Edinburgh East and Musselburgh tell the story of the challenges that historic pubs face. The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Lincoln Jopp), who is no longer in his place, suggested that by mentioning a pub, an MP is hoping to get a free pint when they visit—he underestimates what it takes to get a free pint out of an Edinburgh publican! I think the Sheep Heid Inn in Duddingston in my constituency, which opened in 1360, is the oldest pub in Scotland and potentially the oldest pub referenced in the Chamber today. It lies between Edinburgh castle, in one part of my constituency, and Craigmillar castle, in the other, and was famously a stopping point for King James VI as he travelled between them. There is no better way to spend a day in Edinburgh than climbing Arthur’s Seat and then descending to the Sheep Heid for a pint. I have already told Members about the Tolbooth Tavern on Canongate in the Royal Mile, which was used as a council chamber, a prison and later a pub.
As a former Crown prosecutor, I cannot resist the opportunity to talk about the law or prisons whenever they are mentioned, but on this occasion I wanted to ask my hon. Friend if he would like to join me at some point in the future for a cocktail at the Moot bar in Alfreton, in my constituency? It does great cocktails and it is on the site of a moot hall, from which jury trials are thought to originate.
I would very much enjoy visiting that pub with my hon. Friend, but only on condition that she comes with me to another pub in my constituency connected with the criminal justice system: the White Hart inn on the Grassmarket, where I spent Saturday night. That pub was founded in 1510, although the current building dates from early Georgian times, when there was no better day out in Edinburgh than to go and watch a public execution on the Grassmarket, followed by a drink in the White Hart inn. We do not do that any more, although during the Edinburgh festival it is fun to go and see some comedians get murdered, then go to the White Hart for a pint afterwards! In these historic pubs, one feels a connection not just with the whole community, but with the history of the place. I think of the Ensign Ewart, just outside the gates of Edinburgh castle, which is named after a hero of Waterloo and still contains memorabilia from that battle. In Edinburgh, these pubs in the Old Town have made an outstanding contribution to world history. The Scottish enlightenment took place in the Old Town of Edinburgh. Everybody lived in that crowded area, in flats—piled up on top of each other. At the top were the aristocrats, in the middle were the merchants and in the lower flats were the working classes and the urban poor. Because they were all living side by side, cheek by jowl, they would congregate in the pubs of Edinburgh, and people would talk not to those from their own social class, but to those from other social classes; they would talk about the ideas of politics, reform, religion and philosophy that were going around the continent. It is because everybody in Edinburgh had to get together in the pubs like that that they were able to exchange ideas and the enlightenment took hold in our city. We underestimate the power of pubs at our peril. Although many hon. Members have extolled the virtues of the pubs in their constituencies, I think I have one-upped everyone by claiming that western civilisation actually developed in mine. It is not just in the medieval Old Town of Edinburgh where we can find the value of historic pubs. The Espy in Portobello is a seafront staple. Owner Amanda Caygill, who has been a long-serving part of the Portobello scene, has recently left after 19 years serving the community. I am looking forward to seeing what happens and who takes over. In Musselburgh, we have the Volunteer Arms, known to locals as Staggs. It is one of CAMRA’s real ale pubs of the year and has a beautiful Victorian interior. It recently featured in “Dept. Q” on Netflix. The owners, Katie McKenzie, Nigel Finlay and Hayley Finlay make a massive contribution to Musselburgh life. I am particularly indebted to them because when I was last there I left my keys on the bench, and they kindly put them in a taxi and sent them across Edinburgh for me.
Brian MathewLiberal Democrat
Bannerman’s bar in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency is well frequented, especially during the Edinburgh fringe. We have heard the most wonderful arguments and expositions about pubs from Members from right across the House, but I wonder if the hon. Member is convinced that the Bill should pass?
I agree with the hon. Gentleman that Bannerman’s is a fantastic Edinburgh pub. I support the principles of protecting historic pubs, and in my remarks I am underlining my support for historic pubs in my constituency. We have pubs like Bennets in Tollcross, which is a beautiful pub with dark wood and brass taps, right beside the newly reopened King’s Theatre—the Old Lady of Leven Street. The Ormelie tavern in Joppa has a historic tenement lounge. It is one of those great tenement pubs that we get in Edinburgh. I really recommend it after a day campaigning in the cold winds of Edinburgh and Portobello. Another of my favourites is the Regent in Abbeyhill. The Regent would not qualify for the 150-year rule set out in the Bill, because it is a gay bar, and 150 years ago homosexuality was criminalised. The Regent opened in 2003—which, shockingly, was only 22 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in Scotland. That underlines the point that pubs are not just bricks and mortar, places we go or local phenomena. Look at gay bars: they are places for a community who come from far and wide, seeking people like them. The Regent is in central Edinburgh, and I last visited after the Holyrood garden party. I walked from Holyrood palace, having seen the King and Queen, up to the Regent, where I saw some of my other fellow queens. That is the role that gay pubs can play: they bring communities together, allowing people a safe space where they do not fear attack. They are also places to which we can bring along friends from the straight community so that they can see, understand and acclimatise to our culture. We have been talking about the closure of pubs in this country, which is a problem that we have to face, but gay pubs and LGBT venues have been closing disproportionately faster than ordinary pubs. A study by University College London found that between 2006 and 2017, 25% of all pubs had closed, but 58% of LGBT venues had closed. Pubs are not just about bricks and mortar or a geographic community but about identity, and community is not always geographic; it can go further. The Minister is the Member of Parliament for Vauxhall, so I am sure she understands well the role of LGBT venues in protecting our pubs, but I would be happy to take her to the Royal Vauxhall Tavern or the Cock Tavern in her constituency should she need any further convincing. While my constituency is home to amazing pubs, sadly in Scotland we are governed by a Scottish National party Government. As a result of their policies, we are seeing pubs closing fast. For example, last year the Willow in Jock’s Lodge closed its doors. It was demolished just a few weeks ago to make room for student flats. Jock’s Lodge is a historical part of Edinburgh, but its character has been changing rapidly as our city grows. It has served the communities of Restalrig and Meadowbank since at least 1650, where it was the last stop on the London to Edinburgh stagecoach—those same people probably stopped at Stevenage on their way. With the Bill, the challenge is preserving the character and identity of a district as it changes. In Scotland, under SNP legislation, that is not happening. For Jock’s Lodge, Edinburgh council intervened and blocked the decision, but the Scottish Government—centralising, as always—called it in and vetoed the objections of 1,000 residents. That comes on top of 50% of pubs in Scotland closing—a faster rate than in England. Since 2021, 293 Scottish pubs have closed permanently, with 4.1% of pubs in England having closed compared with 6.4% of pubs in Scotland. That is due to Government decisions. I counsel hon. Members to look over the border to see the mistakes that the SNP is making.
I am troubled by what my hon. Friend is saying. I am not familiar with Scotland in great detail; clearly, he is an expert in the area. I visited and had a lovely time there last summer, although I am not sure it counted as summer if the weather is anything to go by. With whisky being such an important part of the economy in Scotland, does he have any thoughts about the link between pubs closing and the impact on the economy?
My hon. Friend makes an incredibly important point. Scotland is the world capital of whisky. On the one hand, the spirits industry and the whisky industry are a crucial part of keeping pubs open. In my constituency, we often go into pubs and see people drinking a dram; it is not the beers and wines that keep pubs open in England. On the other hand, the challenges facing the whisky industry are the same as the ones that close pubs down south of the border. The big challenge is cost. It is much cheaper for someone to buy a bottle of whisky or gin and drink it at home, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Dr Prinsley) said in relation to beer. That is one of the big challenges we have. It is not just that; it is also challenges such as business rates and planning. Members have been discussing what they see as the flaws in the English planning system to protect pubs. I listened with envy, because the rules to protect pubs are much stronger here than they are in Scotland. Free-standing pubs can still, shamefully, be demolished without planning permission in Scotland, and CAMRA has long called for that loophole to be closed. In England, demolishing a pub or changing its use needs a planning application, because pubs are deliberately excluded from the relevant development rights. That allows councils a chance to weigh up any impact. In Scotland, that is not the case. Pubs are better protected in England, and I would like us to follow suit in Scotland. The UK Labour Government have brought in business rates relief that will help pubs, but in Scotland those have not properly and fairly been passed to pubs in the community. As always in Scotland under the SNP, while the proposal from the Scottish Government may sound generous on paper, the reality is—and the pub industry argues—that the way they have structured the relief leaves many businesses worse off. On average, a pub in my constituency would have been paying £36,000 extra in rates had the SNP not been forced to backtrack. It is important to hear the cross-party and cross-country support in the Chamber for heritage pubs. I am happy to work with any Member from any party who wants to build them up. I welcome many aspects of the Bill. Community ownership, bringing people together and allowing our local economy to thrive are crucial roles that historic pubs have been playing in our constituencies for literally centuries. Long may they continue to do so.
I am delighted to speak in this debate, and I thank the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire (Mike Wood) for bringing the Bill forward. I do not think any of us in the House would question his motivation. We heard the passion with which he spoke of the terrible destruction that befell the Crooked House pub in his constituency; I think many of us remember hearing about it in the news and the events that followed. As we have heard in so many fantastic contributions from Members across the House, we all share the desire not only to preserve the heritage pubs that have been at the heart of our villages and communities for centuries but to ensure they continue to thrive for decades or, we hope, centuries to come. As we have heard, these pubs are so much more than small businesses. They are community institutions. They are places where memories are formed. They are places where history is made. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray) is claiming one of the pubs in his constituency as the birth of the enlightenment. It is very tricky for me to match that, although we do have very interesting and historic pubs across Shipley. Pubs are meeting places and places of history. For me, pubs are where I gather with my family—my mum and dad, my brother, sisters, nieces and nephews—on family occasions, around a large table, often enjoying a Sunday roast with large portions of Yorkshire pudding, washed down with one of my favourite locally-brewed pints. It is difficult to mention what my favourite beer is, unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St Edmunds and Stowmarket (Dr Prinsley)—I am assuming that his favourite beer is Greene King, because he mentioned it a lot in his speech. I will have to mention several of my favourite local brews: Saltaire Brewery, the Goose Eye Brewery in Crossflats and the Bingley Brewery in Wilsden all produce excellent craft brews. Those local independent breweries also need relationships with the local heritage pubs. Sometimes the tied pubcos prevent those independent breweries selling their beer in the pubs that are almost across the road. We need to look more broadly at not only the heritage pubs but the relationships between independent pubs and breweries, to ensure that the whole industry thrives. Shipley is home to many charismatic, historic pubs that welcome locals and visitors alike. I have, because of the generosity of colleagues, been able to briefly mention a few of those historic pubs, but I will come back to one or two and give more detail about them. The Malt Shovel in Harden is a grade II listed building that lies next to one of two Roman roads that run through the village. It is believed to have been constructed as early as 1550, and as we have heard from other Members, it had a number of historical uses, including a farmhouse, a coaching house, a courtroom and a prison. There does seem to be some connection between pubs and prisons, so I better watch out when I am next down there enjoying a pint that somebody does not decide to put me in the cell. The pub has a cell room from that time, complete with a barred window. Thankfully, I have thus far avoided that when I have been down there. That is partly because I would rather sit in the pub’s spacious beer garden, particularly after having done door knocking, which I tend to focus on during a summer blitz of the villages. The Malt Shovel is as cosy inside, with a warm fire in the inglenook fireplace, which is reported to date back to the time of William and Mary. In the Bill, I am interested in the point about how we preserve the interiors of the pubs. As everybody has said, the character of historic pubs is not only the external façade but the interior, whether that is the inglenook fireplace, beams or other features. I would like to understand how we can preserve the interiors of heritage pubs. The second pub that I briefly mentioned and will come back to because it is pertinent to the Bill is The Old Glen House in Baildon. It is a beautiful old building, dating back at least 500 years. At the moment, my constituents and I are very worried about its future. It has had a few years of intermittent closures, and following the departure of the recent tenants, it remains closed. It is currently missing a roof. At my recent townhall question and answer session in Baildon, one of my constituents raised the matter of the pub. When pubs stand empty, they are at higher risk of arson—I realise that in the hon. Member for Kingswinford and South Staffordshire’s case there is still a pending court case, but we also see it elsewhere. The building is neglected, and the lack of roof could lead to internal damage. My constituents are rightly concerned about the impact on the building of its standing empty, and about its future. The Old Glen House is a popular pub. It stands on the edge of Shipley glen on Baildon moor. It is a fantastic spot that people love to come to. They come on the train to Saltaire, they go through the historic Roberts Park in the Saltaire world heritage site. They catch the Shipley Glen Tramway, which is an incredible feat of Victorian engineering from 1895—it used to come up to Shipley glen where there was a fairground. That is where the pub is, and it is a fantastic local asset. I will be working with local residents, learning from some of the examples we have heard in the Chamber today of how communities have come together, but the first thing is to put pressure on the pubco to ensure it makes the necessary improvements, brings it back to its former glory and protects this valuable, community pub, the Old Glen House. We have heard a lot about community assets and some of the challenges for communities to do that. That is one thing we need to try to understand. It is fantastic—I am a member of the Co-operative party as well—that the English Devolution and Community Empowerment Act 2026 gives new powers for communities to buy assets. Communities face a lot of obstacles, as we heard so eloquently from my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and Solway (Markus Campbell-Savours).
c laimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 11(2)).
Ordered , That the debate be resumed on Friday 15 January 2027.
Source: UK Parliament Hansard API. Debate ID: 5418254.